150: Fireside with Mo McKibbin

Charlotte Ward: 0:12

Hello and welcome to episode one hundred and fifty of the Customer Support Leaders podcast. Charlotte Ward. Today I'd like to welcome Moa McKibben for a fireside chat. I'd like to welcome back to the podcast today, Mo McKibben. Mo, it is lovely to have you back for my 150th episode.

Mo McKibbin: 0:42

Oh my gosh, I'm so honoured.

Charlotte Ward: 0:44

And it's an honour for me too. And I think uh, you know, what's particularly nice is that this is one of my extended chats. This is uh you're you're coming back for one of my favourite formats. I mean, they're all my favourite formats actually, but let's pretend this is my favorite format of them all. Uh this is a fireside chat. So I traditionally ask all my guests if they are near a fireside.

Mo McKibbin: 1:08

I am near a uh cedar and suede scented candle. And uh excellent. That's my fireside for the day.

Charlotte Ward: 1:17

Excellent. We'll we'll take that. We'll take that. It's very small, but it's a fire. It's good. Um so um with all my fireside conversations, the guest brings the topic. What would you like to talk about today?

Mo McKibbin: 1:33

Well, I'm actually in the midst of hiring uh for Moxian, our first EU or EMEA um hire uh for customer a hybrid between customer support and success. We're in a uh we're a very small team right now. So um I have a philosophy about scaling customer support teams that's very similar to what we did at Help Scout, where we start out with uh generalists that are sort of both technical and then also you know support success hybrids, both value and best practices, conversations and coaching and education and enablement, but then also you know, technical and troubleshooting. And then as the team scales, it goes into specialties. Um, so this is a generalist hire, and it's in uh it's not just the first support team member in the EMEA, it's our first Moxian team member in the EMEA, but we have lots and lots and lots of customers over there, uh, major customers that would be disastrous if we dropped the ball. Um, so recently I've been waiting my myself and my team has mostly just been waking up at ridiculous hours to handle these customer requests. And they've been coming more and more frequently as we've gotten more and more popularity over there. So it's a really, really important hire. It's also a hire that has to, we have to know, holds their own on a lonely time zone, that they are resourceful, that they're a self-starter, that they're confident, that they're senior. Um, so what I wanted to bring to talk about today, since I'm in the throes of hiring, is hiring screens, um, skill-based hiring screens to make sure that you have quality candidates, um, even if you don't have a lot of time to filter through applications.

Charlotte Ward: 3:26

Right. I mean, who has time to filter through applications? So screens are really, really important. And I mean, I so I I want to dig into this a little bit with you over the next 20 minutes or so, obviously, but you've got a number of like other challenges going on there as well, which I I know that there's there's the there's the time zone, there's the fact it's early stage and quite a hybrid role. Um and it's remote. Now I know you and I are both seasoned remote.

Mo McKibbin: 3:51

It is really like a it is honestly unicorn hunting.

Charlotte Ward: 3:56

Well, we've all been there. So so maybe we can talk a little bit about some of those particular challenges.

Mo McKibbin: 4:01

But oh, and also our customer base is movie, film and television. So it's not like finding a SaaS person for another SaaS product, it's finding someone you can also teach film and production workflow as a customer base. So it also helps if they have film and production background experience, which is not easy to find.

Charlotte Ward: 4:24

Yeah, yeah. That that's a that's a very special unicorn. More special than all the other unicorns, I feel. Um so let's talk about this a bit then. So so where what's been like the the essence of your approach? Where where did you start?

Mo McKibbin: 4:40

Sure. Well, so I have to say, um, I I basically uh tailored this approach by tailor uh tailored, I mean stole. I stole this from the high the help scout hiring process, which I of course went through. Um, but then we also it we found that it was really excellent for just getting quality remote candidates at a senior level. Um so it starts off with a written screen. Um I added a uh I use this um so it starts off with a written written screen. Um, and then I'll talk about what the health scale process was, and then I'll talk about the adjustments that I have made since. So um it starts off with a written screen, and then it goes into, you know, sort of like a culture-based like, can you do this actual job um with the hiring manager interview or with a team member interview? And then it goes into a technical screen, which is really like, do you have the technical acumen to be able to thrive for a technical support SaaS role? Um, and then it goes into a project, which is evaluated by several team members. Um, at Help Scout, we had uh evolved two, we had two different projects. One of them was just giving a demo of Help Scout. That's what I did. Um, but later, as we started scaling the team, there was really only a particular type of specialty, as I mentioned before, that would give demos, which were uh growth specialists. So then we evolved it into a queue, um, a conversation, queue stress test, where we'd have like a couple of conversations and access to a knowledge base article and have sort of like a timed um project where they would have to answer those conversations in the queue with uh so we'd invite them to a Help Scout trading account, and then they'd you know be able to use Help Scout and like the tools that are in there and have access obviously to all they would all be things that you could find in the knowledge base, but they would require, you know, searching and resourcefulness um skills to be able to find information on your own. So that was we did a Q stress test and we did uh uh or we did the demo, if it was more of somebody who needed to talk to customers versus do more um technical troubleshooting email. Um, and then we we capped it off with a gut check, um, a gut check interview, uh, which would be like a usually like leadership on a different team or some someone who is out of the hiring process and relatively unbiased. So they could screen for flags. Because when you're hiring somebody, you have um, you know, you get like you get attached to people.

Charlotte Ward: 7:33

You do though, you do like and particularly as you go, you're going through all these stages and you're following, you're following people becoming increasingly successful through all these stages, and you're forming your own opinions about their skills and about their approach. And and and yeah, for sure you do. So it's nice to have somebody who's not spoken to them before, right?

Mo McKibbin: 7:54

Exactly. And so sometimes you get you see flags, but then you're like, I like them. So like you just like erase those flags. I am particularly terrible at that. I am like the every, I just like I'm like such a Pollyanna for people, or just like I just see the best in everyone. So I'm I I'm not gonna say I'm great at hiring because I have that huge fatal flaw, but that is why um I have come to rely on all of these different other people and filters to keep to protect me from myself. Um, so what I've done now at Maxianne is I've so I've adjusted that hiring screen into two, there's it's a written screen and also I don't know if you know this about type form, but type form has this sub product. I think they're like related tangentially, um, called video ask. And video ask allows you to ask a question over a video and then get a video recording answer back to your question. That's amazing. Yes. So it's really good for being able to assess someone's verbal communication skills, which is really um for for me at Moxian, for us at Moxian, it I would say verbal communication is almost more critical. Well, no, written communication is super critical. They're both equally critical.

Charlotte Ward: 9:16

But um because you have a a really um a really significant portion of of effectively live support, right? You do phone support and everything.

Mo McKibbin: 9:24

We do yes, exactly. We do coaching calls. There, these these individuals will have to do a lot of onboarding. Um, it's also uh I've I've described this as it's completely revolutionizing revolution, that is the correct word, correct? It's complete it's a revolutionary new way to work for the film and television industry, um, which is not me being like uh over the top with how Maxian is. Like it really is just a totally new workflow that changes things. So it requires quite a bit of re-education. And like, um, I don't want to say hand holding in the way that is sometimes negative. Um, like it's it's it's high touch in a way that really needs to be because you're you're totally changing the way someone's thinking about how to work. Um so yes, verbal communication is very important. Um and the other thing is because it's a super lonely time. So I incorporated a video ask. So they have a qu I ask two questions and then they um reply back with a question, which gives me a good idea of how they communicate spoken before even getting into the interview. So before I even need to like sign up for a good G chat or like a Google Hangout, before I even get to that phase, like I also already get a vibe for how they communicate verbally. And then my favorite thing about the written screen is I have a couple of questions to get a feel for like their writing style and also just you know, like a couple of it is like what interested you about working for Moxian. Because obviously I know nobody's like, I've always wanted to work for Moxian because it's like a brand new company. It's why why would anyone know it existed unless you were in film? Like so, but you know, that it shows like, oh, they've researched, um, they've looked at the page, they've thought about the customer. Like, have they thought about the customer? Have they thought about the audience? Have they thought, I mean, you know, not to toot my own horn, but occasionally people will bring up support-driven growth and like that philosophy and that they find it like inspiring and want to work in a culture that celebrates that. So it's just like, how much research are they willing to do um to see themselves in this role and be happy in this company? So that's like just like a really, really easy um I I prefer that to a cover letter just because I I just I hate cover letters. I'd rather just ask questions and get answers. Um, and then the other one, this is always my my super favorite hiring screen question, is I uh this was so also stolen from Help Scout, but like you can adapt this to whatever your company is. So the Help Scouts one uh had to do with solving a problem. I I I've completely I forget because this was five years ago that like I last remembered looking at that question, except for answers for it. Um it was something along the lines of setting up SMTP settings or oh, you know what? It was like I think it was about SPF settings and like whitelisting. Um, so again, it is not was not related to Help Scout as a product, like having to know how to do it in the product. It was just a general question about SPF and deliverability, um, which anybody could get from Googling, but it is a common thing that we needed to know about. Um and and so anyone could answer this question if they Googled it. So Moxian's version of that is um actually, and and I'm gonna change this. So um we've already passed everyone through like the hiring screen this time. So if you're listening, it'll change for next time I'm gonna be hiring. This is not a hot tip. This is not a hot tip, it'll change for next time I'm hiring. But like um, so my team member Andy Wall, who is formerly from Apple, thought of this, and I'm like, oh my god, that's so good. Which is how can I log into the Moxi and Apple TV app if I've lost my Apple TV remote? And again, that's a totally Google answer. That's just how do I do anything on the Apple TV app if I lost my remote? Like remote, and there's apparently an Apple TV, there's a way to do it on your iPhone. Um, so like if you just Google didn't follow that, like the steps are like super easy. You just like package it in a friendly manner. However, what it teases out is anybody who doesn't know how to Google.

Charlotte Ward: 13:51

Like Googling is a skill, right?

Mo McKibbin: 13:54

I know, and it's so important when you're hiring remotely, especially if you're hiring somebody who's going to be in a lonely time zone and you're in a situation where you have like tight resources, you really can't uh you just need people to figure things out on their own. Um, and so I that's like always my favorite thing to ask, just because in addition to writing style, just like learning their like let me Google it for you ability, like where they fit on that scale. Yeah, and I'm gonna change it. I have another good one. So anyone who's listening to this who wants to apply in the future, I will have a different question. But I guess you know to Google.

Charlotte Ward: 14:37

Yeah, yeah, I do now. Um I I'm I I'm with you. I think that um it's really important to dissociate the problem solving uh approach and ability from any need for there to be any any uh knowledge of of the product that they're coming in to support, right? I think I have something of a a I I it's not really a question, it's more of a scenario. I don't want to change it, that's the thing. So oh no, but yeah, I've I want to know. I know I'll I'll tell you off air. Okay, but this is more of a live question, so this is more of an interactive thing, it's just it it's a scenario I set up that requires no knowledge whatever of uh any pro any product. I've actually been using this question for probably the best part of 20 years. So people out there who have been interviewed by me will recognize it if I say that it's it's a scenario where I have to whiteboard a bit of a diagram because it's I'm I'm I'm I'm teasing out how they might support a product that most people on the planet have never had to support. Certainly not if they're coming into SaaS or something. So so it's really interesting to see how they approach something that actually has some logic to it and and I can kind of play around with the problem as well, but I'm not broadcasting it.

Mo McKibbin: 16:02

But Okay, that's fair.

Charlotte Ward: 16:04

I'll tell you off air.

Mo McKibbin: 16:05

Ooh, I I can broadcast, I have an interview question. Again, I steal everything from people that I like. Um when I um when I originally uh so before I got a job at Help Scout, I was working at um I was working at Threadless, but I interviewed for Harvest, the time tracking app. And it's so funny because I was interviewed by this um person, Alex, who then uh interviewed me at Help Scout, then and hired me at Help Scout, but didn't hire me at Harvest. But um, she asked me this question that was um always stuck with me, and I steal it and I use it for everyone. Um, because the reason I like it, and I'm totally happy to broadcast it, is um the reason I like it is because there is literally not a right or wrong answer, and it just helps cue me into where they will fit in terms of the spectrum of um like when you're build building a team. So you there might be like a right answer for a role, like for like a position that's opening up, but there's not like a right answer that's general. Um, and so that is understanding that it's all important. How would you rank speed, accuracy, and positivity in responding to customers?

Charlotte Ward: 17:28

Yeah, yeah.

Mo McKibbin: 17:30

And like it's so funny because it's like it really everyone has a different answer too. Like you'd think that like you would start to see some sort of trends emerge, and like it's funny because like um like recently I interviewed somebody and they had actually the same um answers as me, but everybody else had like kind of different variations of the answers. And what I love about it is I feel like all of those skills are needed in support, but they're all sort of um building a well-rounded team kind of involves all of those people who prioritize a different thing first. So, for example, you need somebody who prioritizes accuracy first to be like your deep diver to like really like figure things out and like completely understand something. However, you also need someone who understands speed as, and I'm a speed person actually, which is so it's I I think we're rare as like um, but understands like the speed of acknowledgement and like how even sometimes if you're like a little bit wrong, if you're super fast, people will forgive you because you can like then course correct. Um, like if you are acknowledging something like very quickly versus making someone wait, um can actually like fester um like anxiety. So there's like a need for people who can move things through efficiently, but then there's also a need for somebody who's like really willing to do that like deep diving work to make sure that they completely understand all the pieces and can like um educate others to like answer everything else more accurately, too. They play a really important role in internal enablement. But then also like in terms of positivity, that is a culture person. That is a person who's gonna uplift everybody's um, like everybody's responses and like morale and ability to interact. Um people who prioritize positivity are like warm hug people that like are gonna make everyone else's responses um lift and be more personable. So it's just like it's there's like no right answer, but it helps me clue into like, what is this person? Who is this support personality? And how are they gonna fit in with the team? And is this person important for for what we need right now?

Charlotte Ward: 19:48

I think I think that's super interesting. It's a it and it's much more about the personality than the uh than the one I'm gonna tell you, which I think is sort of similar, but this this also I think speaks to how people. Prioritize their work, which we know is super important in support. The question I often ask is tell me what you understand by the terms severity, urgency, urgency, and priority. And those are my three, because I think they're three very different things. And yet so many, particularly big support teams out there, just use them so interchangeably. But I think they're really, you know, to me, there is.

Mo McKibbin: 20:26

No, they're totally different. Like because urgency, you can be logged out and not know your password. And it that is that severe? No. Um, but does it need to be fixed immediately? Yes. Um, and like severity too, though. It's like, wow, we really need to take our time to fix it. Like, of course, it needs to be fixed. Anything severe needs to be fixed urgently, but it's like more important for like if it's like, oh, if this is a security issue or something, it's just like this is severe, but it needs it also needs to be done correctly. Um and then, yeah, like priority is just finding the balance between the two, just in terms of like what makes more sense for business, impact. That's how I would answer that question.

Charlotte Ward: 21:11

Well, you've got the job.

Mo McKibbin: 21:13

You've got one. Okay, so never, yeah. No, delete that. Nobody, nobody answer that way.

Charlotte Ward: 21:24

And speaking of speaking of stealing as well, um, A, I'm gonna steal yours, but a hundred 101 episodes ago, I was given a top tip by Alyssa Purcell, who at the time was at Meetup but has since moved on. Um, I don't know if you know Alyssa, but she gave me a top interview tip, which I literally went the following day and used in an interview. Um, and I I'm happy to broadcast this because I've already broadcast it way back in uh episode 49.

Mo McKibbin: 21:56

Yeah.

Charlotte Ward: 21:57

Um what she does is uh stop the interview halfway through and ask the person if they'd be willing to. She says, Oh, would would you mind if we could could we just pause the interview for a second while I just give you some feedback? I know it's nasty, but it's so good. Um, and she gives really gentle but very specific and personal and accurate feedback, and it's something that she doesn't tell them to act on it, but she wants to see if they act on it for the rest of the interview.

Mo McKibbin: 22:35

Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's that I mean that's that's really good, but that is also like terrifying. Yeah, um, I like I I feel like I would be nervous doing that. Not just not as the person, but I feel like my like like I would stress out for them.

Charlotte Ward: 22:58

Yeah, I do. I but I've done it in every interview ever since. Yeah, and is it good? Is it really good at it's really good, yeah. It does, yeah, because people will always tell you, yes, absolutely, of course I'm willing to hear your feedback and I will graciously accept it. Nobody ever says, No. Can you imagine?

Mo McKibbin: 23:24

Uh, are you sure this is appropriate now?

Charlotte Ward: 23:28

But I'm really gentle with it. And and you know, but it is nonetheless usually usually something like, you know, I'm really conscious of that we're on a time limit, and um, you know, we still have a number of questions to get through. So I'd really appreciate it. I'd really appreciate like just for the next few questions, if you could like be really specific and kind of just you know help us get to the crux of the the answer or or your situation before, you know, I I want to ensure we get to everything. It's that kind of thing. So it's it's very specific to the interactions we've been having. But um it's like, can they then do that? And can they then act on whatever the thing is?

Mo McKibbin: 24:07

So it's not like or are they defensive when they get it? Like exactly, yeah they question like do they question, do they fight back? Do they yeah? Oh, I like that a lot. Oh, well, I'm finished with this like round before we move. Everyone, everyone's in technical screens now, so I'm finished with that. But next time, next time I'll definitely do that.

Charlotte Ward: 24:29

Tell me how you get on.

Mo McKibbin: 24:30

Uh, but it is stressful asking it because you have to- I'll have to practice that in the I'll have to practice that like with I can't even always deliver my husband feedback without him getting stressed out. So I won't practice it with my husband. I'll just ask him apropos of nothing. Like, do you mind if I give you a little feedback?

Charlotte Ward: 24:48

And I'm sure he'll be like the problem is, you know what it's like when you're an interviewer and you're paying like a lot of attention to all of the things that you're trying to screen for anyway. It adds up, it adds a layer of stress because you're also looking for the thing that you want to give them feedback on in the middle of the interview. So it's quite stressful.

Mo McKibbin: 25:10

But I think I have to wait for another like five years of expertise to to to level up to that.

Charlotte Ward: 25:17

It's pretty smart, but I will number I don't I don't I think it's just yeah, I think you just gotta go with it. But but the the other the other question I will tell you off off uh off air. So um, so anyone who's about to be well in for the next role that you advertise.

Mo McKibbin: 25:36

Um yeah, you're in you'll you'll know Charlotte Ward. I'll question. Yeah.

Charlotte Ward: 25:42

If anyone comes by you and by me, they'll know what we were talking about.

Mo McKibbin: 25:48

Um yeah, yeah. I'd love to move on to talking about projects too. I'm really excited about yes, let's do that.

Charlotte Ward: 25:55

We got a bit overexcited about um swapping questions there, but please let um let's read the last few minutes with projects because this I think this is super important as well. Yeah.

Mo McKibbin: 26:06

I'm a huge well, and just in general, I'm a huge advocate of skills-based hiring um versus uh credentials or uh like resume-based hiring or things like that. Um, just because I I myself, it's so funny. Like I can tell a story actually about um I used to work, yeah, I can actually even, I think I can even mention the company. It was a long time ago. Um, I used to work for this company called Upworthy, which is like the irony of about the story I'm about to tell you is like Upworthy was like really into social good and um promoting stories, like promoting stories of like social justice, social good, like oftentimes like they they they covered um my CEO fan girl, um, I think his name is Dan Price. I might be getting the name wrong, but basically the gravity payments guy that pays everybody 70k. Um, business socialism is its finest. Uh so they have the editorial had this message of like equality. Um and I was a business coordinator for them, where I was a uh I basically was like an operational assistant on their business team. Um, so I was like their Salesforce admin, and it was it was kind of a detour I took from customer support for a brief moment, but more on like the uh a business side of a team and and doing a little bit more um like uh operational sort of coordination um and scheduling and and things like that. So I was helping out with hiring, and I was helping out with hiring with his roles, and um the I reported to the CRO and it's so funny, it was like so very clear, he definitely didn't like look at my resume or educational experience, or maybe he just didn't care. I don't think he looked at it though when he was hiring because he made so I went to a community college. Um, and then I I I eventually went to us the school that I went to, which was Loyola, but it was because I got two scholarships and had already gone to a community college. So but I had by the time I was going to like a regular school, it was only for like two, like a regular credentialed university, I should say, or whatever is um, it was only two years and I was barely paying for it, which is why I was able to go. And um and I was interviewing and he said he he dug really, it was like for sales role too. It's like a kind of executive, and like which to me is not something is you're not hiring a doctor. Like you're not hiring someone where it's just like this is somebody whose needs um to this is not like or a lawyer or someone who's like it's it can be a significant problem if there's an educational gap for like people's health and livelihood. Like as a salesperson, and they really dug into everyone's education that we were interviewing for, like, just even terms of like, well, why did this person transfer so much? Or like what, like, oh, that's not like that's like a state school, like we're really looking for someone from an Ivy. And it just felt like incredibly classes to me, which was so antithetical to the company. Um and then, but it really stuck with me too, because I was just like, wow, like you can do such an amazing job and have all the right skills, and people will still judge you for like, I guess, like who you are or where you came from like 10 years ago. Like that's ridiculous. And um, and so anyway, Help Scout was all about skills-based hiring. And so since then, I'm just like a strong advocate for it because Help Scout actually ended up hiring some amazing people who didn't even have backgrounds in like customer support or the jobs that they ended up having. Like one of the very best people ops people came from educ was a teacher. She came from education, and it's like when you think about it, it's like, of course, like you're wrangling a bunch of adults.

Charlotte Ward: 30:23

Yeah, you know, I've heard that story so much on this podcast about how teachers make grades support.

Mo McKibbin: 30:28

Teachers make great support people too. Yeah. So it's just like to me, I I honestly only look at the resume to be like like what is sort of similar, but it's like if there isn't a path on the resume that makes sense, like I don't care. Like it's just kind of like, oh, okay, like I can connect that they came from here because this is similar to Help Scout. So like I have some sort of understanding of their universe because they spent four years at Pipe Drive versus you know, four years at Help Scout. But it's just like if that didn't exist, I would absolutely still hire someone and see if they could, you know, do the job. So enter, aside from the screen, the hiring project, which is the perfect measurement for if somebody can do the job or not. Um, and I have a lot of opinions about this. So my first opinion is as somebody who's done the opposite of or the the side of the hiring project that I think is not great, uh, I don't think a hiring project should ever be have this person do free work for your company. Um, so there was recently I had a hiring project where it was like literally like pitching a strategy and then how I would execute it over. It was I was just like, well, welcome for all the free work in my brain. Like it was like, it was like, what strategy would you have to do this? And what are the exact steps that you take to execute that? And uh it was just and like putting together a deck and doing a presentation. It was just, it was just too much. Um and so that was um, that is not an example of a hiring project I would recommend. But for what we're doing for Moxian, so in Help Scout, there's the Q stress test. Obviously, we're not gonna be able to benefit, Help Scout would not be able to benefit from that work or like doing a demo, they wouldn't be able to benefit from that work after it closed. Um, for Moxian, what we are doing is we're gonna invite people to an account, like a Moxian account, and give them like four or five things that they have to do and have them just do that, like do them because you have to like look at the knowledge base and figure out how to do them. And since Moxian doesn't have like a public knowledge base, and the other thing is it's not like Help Scout, where it's like obviously we were hiring people who used Help Scout before. This is a totally new tool that no one's ever used before, um, unless they're filmmakers, which is none of them. So inviting them to a Moxian account and have them do like basically five sets of things that any account would have to do. Um, and then just uh have a call where and oh, and then we're gonna have one um failed uh asset in there. And we're gonna it's gonna it's it's gonna be very obvious. We're gonna ask what why it failed, and it is a searchable thing in the knowledge base. Um so wait, and then we're gonna have them just in a call explain like what they set up, why they set it up, and then um explain why the asset failed, like as if we were a customer and they were setting us up with a new account for the first time. So that is that's what we're doing. And I haven't seen any of them yet, but I'm very, I'm very excited to see how it pans out for our group.

Charlotte Ward: 33:49

Sounds great. Sounds great. I uh I'm I I'm totally on board with like not giving away, not not expecting people to do free work for you and and and rather just practicing the type of thing that they will be doing for you anyway, um, without you benefiting from it. I really like that, that particular, um, that particular point, that that really important point, that it's not of benefit to the organization that you're hiring into. It's just testing the type of work, right? Uh and keeping it limited in scope, it doesn't have to be huge.

Mo McKibbin: 34:27

Yeah, yeah. Like this is something that honestly it well we're experts that do this all the time. Um, because you can't sign up for a free Moxian free trial. So, like, we're setting up the accounts. All of this is honestly things that would take us maybe five minutes to do, you know. So it's just something that is actually very easy to do. The hardest thing about it is going to be figuring out how to do it without being taught.

Charlotte Ward: 34:55

Yes, yeah, yeah. Which tests so many skills. Um, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love it. Thank you so much, Mo. That's been great. Um, I I I wish you well of my interview questions and uh Alyssa's interview, nasty interview tactics, which yeah, uh, and uh and I'm sure everyone else listening to this will take away lots of actionable advice because that it's been chock full of it. So thank you so much for coming along, sitting by the tiny fireside that is your cedar wood candle.

Mo McKibbin: 35:30

Yeah, the cedar and suede. I don't know Cedar and suede.

Charlotte Ward: 35:35

Oh, lovely.

Mo McKibbin: 35:35

Yeah, it's it smells like a craft store. It's lovely.

Charlotte Ward: 35:42

And on that note, I'm gonna uh thank you very much for joining me and and seeing me through episode 150. So I hope I lived up to it. Oh, totally, every time. Thank you so much for joining me. That's it for today. Go to customersupportleaders.com forward slash one five zero for the show notes, and I'll see you next time.