172: You’re the Host with Natalie Ruhl

Charlotte Ward: 0:12

Hello, and welcome to episode one hundred and seventy-two of the Customer Support Leaders Podcast. I'm Charlotte Ward. This week, one of my former guests is interviewing me. I'd like to welcome back to the podcast Natalie Rule. Natalie is host for today.

Natalie Ruhl: 0:39

Hi, Charlotte. So great to speak to you again today. You know, the last few weeks listening to the podcast, I thought there are loads of interesting topics that are happening on your end and that you get fantastic people to speak about all day long. But one thing that really interests me is like as a leader in support, where do you get support if you run into a problem at work? What is your network to get things out of the way or to get things solved?

Charlotte Ward: 1:11

Oh, good question. Good question. Thank you for asking it. Um, well, where do I go? First of all, I have some very good friends, yourself not least included among them. Um, I have some very good friends both in and outside of the industry. And I actually think it's really important to have both. You know, I've had a lot of great conversations on this podcast, and I've actually learned a great deal. And I think in some ways, this podcast and the friends I've made through it and around it, and the conversations I've had that have actually been broadcast, but also the surrounding conversation that inevitably happens around every episode. All of those conversations, all of those friends and connections, um, I've learned a great deal from. And I have proved to me to be a great sounding board at sometimes a really generic level. So without like bringing any particular problems to the party, I've been given such a lot of food, food for thought, really. Um, and so I have to say that in one word, it's got to be mine, it's got to be network, right? But it's it's kind of it's more than that. It's like people who really know either me or support, and sometimes both.

Natalie Ruhl: 2:24

And yeah, pretty interesting approach, I would say. I I think it's a very good point you make about building uh a diverse network of skills and approaches to issues, problems, um, experiences that people bring to the table. Um, and certainly I would completely say it's absolutely the same for me. It's important for me to also sometimes get inspiration from completely different lines of work, um, be that engineering, sometimes even finance, who would have thought, you know. Um it's it's it's interesting to me to see how other people approach an issue and that will oftentimes give give you an idea of like, oh yeah, I haven't tried that, or maybe that approach would even work, you know, within my circumstance. Very true. Um and so I I think that's a great learning to have. And it's also something I think that as a leader, I want to instill in people in my team is that like you have to find the people in your corner, you have to find the people that you can kind of spin ideas back and forth with. Um, and when it comes to more of like your day-to-day and finding support um for support, do you do you think like within you know your your work group uh that would be different? You would approach these things differently.

Charlotte Ward: 3:43

That's a good question. I I think I like you, I have found inspiration in engineering and finance and other business functions for sure. Um I think that uh you know the ab the opportunity to talk over particularly like organizational challenges is really useful if you make those connections within your organization. So you're able to talk over like common goals, you're able to talk over common challenges, how people relate to each other, how business functions relate to each other. And almost in some cases, even looking from the outside at a third business function and figuring out like how you both can improve your relationship to it operationally or or um you know, just like in terms of fostering those relationships with that third business function. I think that I've had a lot of useful conversations there. I try the one thing I would say is that we all have work friends, don't we? The one thing I really, really try, yeah, the one thing I would I would just always avoid is being too specific in those conversations. As as as close a friend as I thought I was making in any organization I've been in, it's um, you know, it never becomes personal, it's always about the business. And I think that's like I think that's something that everyone should be really super careful of. Um, I'm one of those annoying people, I'm one of those annoying mums. When my children used to go to school, I'm one of those annoying mums that would never engage in gossip about the teachers, you know, I'd be at the school gate and there would be other mothers saying, oh, that teacher, the way they spoke to, or the way they do this, or or whatever. I've heard, and I would just not get involved and not engage in that gossip. And I'm not one for workplace gossip. So when I am having when I am having conversations with with my peers, it's only ever about the business, it's not about the personalities.

Natalie Ruhl: 5:54

Yeah, I think that's that's a very wise approach as well. I think it also helps me keep uh that level with folks because I'm really interested in in solving a work problem here. I'm not interested in changing, you know, someone's approach or someone's opinion because I feel I have to. It's more about like, well, what how can we find communalities to overcome whatever it is that's like put in front of maybe me and my team or you and yours or or like a shared opinion. One thing I found pretty interesting, and I I don't know exactly why I'm reminded of it now, is the other day I had um a one-on-one with a more junior person in my team. They wanted to know a bit more about my career and how, you know, like how I started and where I got um to where I've gotten um now. The one thing that they asked me that I found quite interesting is, and I want to ask you two, what would you say is a challenge for you at work in your job? You're so senior now, you've done a lot of different things, you've seen a lot of different places. What would you say is a challenge for you?

Charlotte Ward: 6:58

Oh, that's a really good question. You know, we're in the middle of review season. Reviews are always a challenge. Yeah. Yeah, and I think um sorry, I think that's the biggest challenge for me. It's just like in the moment this week, what have I been working most on? What have I found most anxiety-inducing is writing about other people. The thing, the thing I think that I find most challenging about reviews, aside from the volume, let's face it, when they all come in at once, is just the the sort of somewhat formulaic way of writing. I've approached this in different ways over the years. Um, I've tried writing a whole review for one person. I've tried answering, this was my method this time, was to answer the same question for each of my team and then go back. Stay in the mindset to stay in the stay in the mindset of values and then achievements and then improvements. And and that's had a different success. I I won't say that either of those has been the magic bullet for reviews for me, but so if anyone actually listening to this has got a third way, I'd be very interested to hear it because I find I find just the whole process of uh distilling and extracting and being having a a sort of very formulaic approach at volume is quite difficult. It's quite it's quite draining actually.

Natalie Ruhl: 8:24

Uh I would I would again like completely agree with you there. It always takes you a second to to get back into that um mind and into that frame of mind. When have you last asked for help at work?

Charlotte Ward: 8:37

I don't find asking for help really easy at all in any time of my life. Anyone who knows me will recognize in me that I don't ask for help. Um, I just don't. And that's not a quality to be admired. I know that, but it's just I f I really struggle to ask for help. Um so who do I ask for help? Um, I think it depends largely on um the problem at hand. Um and definitely my relationship to the people who I think might be able to help. I will, I, you know, I am, despite some rumours to the contrary, I am, after all, only human. So I will clearly um often uh seek help from those people who I have a better working relationship with um or a closer working relationship with. Um but also have the skills that I feel I'm lacking in the moment, you know. So it's a matter of identifying what I need. And I think I think that's for me uh the simple way of asking for help. It's like if I understand what I need already, if I understand the skill or the perspective that I'm missing, it's then much easier to go and ask for help rather than just throwing my hands up in the air and saying I don't know where to start. That's just kind of my personal kind of that's the thing I struggle with. I would rather sit there and and just bang away at something until I made a a modicum of progress with it before I then went and asked to help, asked for help, rather than just saying, I don't even know where to start. You know, um, research is my friend. Um, so I will always give something a fair shot before and quite often, you know, I'll recognize something that I just don't have the skills for, be it how to do a bit of automation or how to extract a bit of analysis from something. Or um, yeah, it's just a matter of like recognizing what skills I'm missing or what knowledge I'm missing and figuring out who's the right person to ask. Actually, I think that's quite often a bigger challenge is recognizing who you need to ask.

Natalie Ruhl: 10:47

Yeah, and that can be, you know, depending on on the uh organization, that can be a task in itself. It's like knocking on doors until you find the person who knows what you're after, um, for sure. Playing with review season, if you give yourself, you know, like a little bit of a self-reflection, what would be a task that you are looking to add to your roster over the next until the next review season?

Charlotte Ward: 11:13

There's so many. There are just so many.

Natalie Ruhl: 11:15

Prioritize, Charlotte, prioritize.

Charlotte Ward: 11:17

I know. Oh god, well, prioritization. Yeah. Um yeah, I mean, there's there are just so many big or small. I I guess if I had to big a if I had to pick a big category, it would probably be commercials for a better way of putting it. It's like I really feel like there's a little bit of a a little bit of a gap around my ability to um articulate and understand commercials at speed. It's like I'm not incapable, like, but I have to remind myself every single time what certain definitions mean.

Natalie Ruhl: 12:00

Um also it's a it's a whole different mindset. And I I don't know about you, but for me, oftentimes, you know, when I think about support, the mindset of oh, must be a burden, must not be a cost center, must not revert back to these things, often um make me lose creativity in in finding solutions because I immediately already think, well, if I stay that creative, it's gonna have a big dollar sign, and I don't know how quickly I could make that money back to keep bringing an ROI. Uh and therefore I will then pick the less, the less creative option. Um, and that often is because the interactions of the commercials, I have a hard time finding, I want to say, um, not the value, but but finding the return to the rest of the business for support.

Charlotte Ward: 12:53

Yeah, yeah. Being able to put a number to that bottom line is super difficult, even in the simplest of support organizations, I think. And certainly when it comes to um recognizing and realizing what the ROI is in dollar terms for any single piece of work, any single initiative, it's super hard.

Natalie Ruhl: 13:13

Um, I mean, you could but it's also in translating that, you know, to these other business function owners is like, I want you to invest, you know, in this amazing thing, because I think down the line it may, if you know, possibly. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Charlotte Ward: 13:30

It just seems by the time you get to the end of that sort of sentence, it just seems so vague that that they haven't a hope in hell of ch of understanding it.

Natalie Ruhl: 13:37

And over that table.

Charlotte Ward: 13:40

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I try and um I mean, I think in the absence of being able to put a pure dollar value to something, I try and quantify it in the best means I have, whether it's hours, but it often feels to me like very much napkin math, you know. Oh, for sure. Uh and I my problem as well is that I can get quite embedded in the super fine detail because I'll just keep digging, feeling like I've got to get ever more accurate in these estimates. So I'm like, so it's impossible. I swear to God, I I built this forecasting model not so long ago where I try to adjust. This is ridiculous now, I think about it. My my most recent, like, I was trying to get a real, really extra refined forecasting model, and I tried to layer in the load on my team that was to be expected by onboarding a new hire, because it takes us about two months to onboard a new hire, and it has an impact on the hours we're therefore able to deliver to our customers. And I I genuinely tried to calculate how many hours it would take out of my existing team to onboard a new hire and adjust for that in my hiring plan. And it actually comes down to a very small percentage of a person, um, which might throw a higher a hire out by a week over the course of a year or something. But I spent I spent a bit too much time trying to refine this model before I realized that actually all of the time I probably would have saved in having such a refined model, I'd wasted in attempting to calculate the refined model. So by now, all the money that I would have saved. Yeah.

Natalie Ruhl: 15:26

Yeah. So for all the money that I could have saved, you know, I probably should have done an extra class in Excel to not be stumped by these by my own model.

Charlotte Ward: 15:33

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you know what, which which is just to go back to our earlier point, which is where I ask for help. I mean, help can come in the most unexpected of places sometimes. I was uh I was very, very stuck a few years back actually on an Excel problem. Um, and I got talking to a dad in the school queue waiting to pick up our sons, and it turned out that he taught XL.

Natalie Ruhl: 15:59

And can you can I have his number?

Charlotte Ward: 16:03

Yeah, for sure. Um, and he just said, Oh, yeah, what you need is this function and this and this and this, and piece of cake, right? I couldn't believe I just at that moment had the insight I needed.

Natalie Ruhl: 16:16

Yeah, and uh exactly that time in the school queue was not wasted.

Charlotte Ward: 16:20

Exactly, exactly. I mean, who who knows where you find it? And I went I went back to work that day, created my spreadsheet, which I'm sure was some equally elaborate forecasting model, and got got everything out of it that I was ever looking for. Just goes to show, just goes to show. Interesting.

Natalie Ruhl: 16:38

Um, another rando question here. What is your favorite question to ask in an interview of a candidate?

Charlotte Ward: 16:47

Ah, uh I have because I hire very technical people and have done for the whole time I've been in leadership. So for the last 15, 16 years, I've been hiring very technical people. I came across a question in my last outing as a technical candidate myself, which I really liked, and I've used ever since from that day to this. I I was asked this question in an interview about 20 years ago, and I really liked it. The reason I really like it is it it makes no assumed knowledge. Um, it's very easy when you're hiring technical people just to talk about the skills. Do you have the skills in X programming language? You know, do you do you know the requisite number of commands? Can can you define and understand this thing at the level we need? But obviously, what we need in support is actually problem solving and the ability to communicate more than we need any single technical skill. Yeah, yeah. And um, I'm not gonna give away the whole game, um, but I will give you the context, which is that I present my candidates with a pseudo-technical problem that bears absolutely no relation to what I'm gonna ask them to do day to day. It has no assumed knowledge. Um, it's what it's whiteboarded, and I act like the client. Um, I'm not super, and I always say because I hate those like very role-play questions where I expect them to pick pick up a fake phone and say, hello, welcome to technical support. How can I help you? etc. So it's not that, but it's like actually all I want to do is kind of in the pseudo-client role. I've got this problem, it's whiteboarded. Tell me the kind of things you're going to talk me through, how are you going to approach it, why, how are you going to communicate with me? And let's work through it as if I'm a client. And that is really illuminating. It feels a little foolish, even after 15 years. I feel I feel a little foolish setting this up because of the very bemused, mostly because of the very bemused smiles on the face of my candidates when I ask them this question. But it's really illuminating because it weeds out those people who can't communicate, weeds out the people who don't ask the right questions, and it weeds out also the people who it weeds it also weeds out the people who are afraid of a problem they don't know in advance. Because most people with deep technical skills have already done a great deal of troubleshooting in the area of their expertise. But if you throw something new at them, how do they cope? Can they still communicate? Can they still be human? Does it matter?

Natalie Ruhl: 19:39

Can they even admit, you know, that like, well, you know, I'd have to take this away and maybe take it apart before getting back to you.

Charlotte Ward: 19:45

Exactly.

Natalie Ruhl: 19:46

Which can be just like an everyday occurrence that happens all the time that you're like, can't help you there. Give me time.

Charlotte Ward: 19:53

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So that's my so I won't give you the answer, and also it's a it's a question I can change so I can customize it depending on how they it's a good kind of like leveler as well. Yeah, exactly.

Natalie Ruhl: 20:08

That is something that stays kind of like, you know, you you can that that those skills you can kind of compare in candidates as well.

Charlotte Ward: 20:17

Yeah, for sure, for sure. It's mostly about attitude and communications rather than skills.

Natalie Ruhl: 20:22

For me, like I don't know, I think that I think we talked about this like in one of um uh the previous podcast that I was a guest on. Uh but attitude really is like what I'm looking for.

Charlotte Ward: 20:32

There are I'm willing to teach you loads of things, but attitude you it's just something that you there have to have with some yeah you you can't you can't train a an attitude or a personality but you can train skills for sure.

Natalie Ruhl: 20:48

And coming back to skills I think that would be kind of like my next question to kind of bring it back to the podcast and let's see if you're willing to to to tell us but what is something that you have learned from a guest on the podcast that you went and implemented very quickly after in your own day to day oh my gosh oh my gosh um I think I think that I have definitely taken some really really um concrete takeaways particularly from the forecasting week um so lots of conversations that week about really what forecasting looks like and the type of things you do.

Charlotte Ward: 21:31

So I've made some changes to my spreadsheet for example let's not get bogged down in how long it takes to onboard it. Yeah yeah um and some of that actually in that week particularly some of it was just that kind of acceptance of imperfection actually slightly meta lesson to take away but it was kind of I think it was Matt Dale who said to me that um in his recording that week if memory serves he said something like you know I've built this model and I've been refining it for years. And I cut that kind of stuck with me like he just gets better at it every year. It gets a little bit more accurate. And I do get a bit obsessed with like being hyperaccurate on the first pass. So so I've kind of I took that on board and I'm learning to slowly learning to let go a little on the accuracy. And I've taken away some really great things um in the several weeks that we've run through supports relationship to different business functions um and supports support contributing to revenue I've had some great insights those have been my favorite weeks actually I think um particularly they also I feel become become the the most important kind of takeaways I think as a leader is finding allies within the company but at the same time building out understanding your contribution to the company better and the the the contribution of your team because I think that is um an important skill to have as a leader in support as well is like making sure your team understands their contribution to everything shiny and maybe in some people's eyes cooler that is going on in the organization.

Natalie Ruhl: 23:13

And and then kind of tying that back to being able to show how that contribution shows off in in like a return on investment. Yeah yeah absolutely being able to draw the lines from what your people are doing on the front line every day to to both their own their own paths of growth and the path of growth for the company and if you can get the two in line then you hit the nirvana really and absolutely true absolutely right thank you so much Natalie it's been an absolute pleasure to chat to you thank you for the questions um I felt like I had a bit of a thorough grilling um I hope somebody found some use in there um uh and I'm more than happy to take more questions another time but thank you so much for any time love to investigate you it's it's it's a lot of fun to like kind of become inquisitive and just hear more about the host who's usually you know is grilling the rest of the the other side of the table.

Charlotte Ward: 24:07

It's definitely the easy job. I've never felt more uncomfortable than when people ask me questions. Well I make sure to do more of that then thank you so much that's it for today go to customersportleaders.com forward slash one seven two for the show notes and I'll see you next time