197: Managing Change with Natalie Ruhl

Charlotte Ward: 0:13

Hello and welcome to episode one hundred and ninety-seven of the Customer Support Leaders Podcast. I'm Charlotte Ward. The theme for this week is managing change. So stay tuned for five leaders talking about that very topic. I'd like to welcome back to the podcast today my very good friend Natalie Ruell. Natalie, it's lovely to have you back to talk about managing change, which I think right from the bat is a kind of a term that you slightly object to. Am I right?

Natalie Ruhl: 0:48

Hi Charlotte. Thanks for having me again. Um yeah, I it's not so much that I think abhor the the coin of the term of words, but um it is just something that I think it is just something that becomes second nature as you start managing people, start managing functions uh in your career. Because if we're quite honest, like how growth happens, how sometimes you know um anything happens that has to do with goaling, what are we doing as a business? It all involves change. Change is basically what makes our worlds go round. Without it, we'll be like a stagnant mass or soup that you know, it's just not a lot is happening in that. And so I think I had to become familiar with that feeling of like, oh, something might be different today than it was yesterday, and again the day after, uh, quite quickly. That doesn't say, you know, it is easy and it's it's always a good feeling. It certainly is something that I think you have to kind of let yourself fall into a little bit. Um, but it is a thing that happens all the time. And so when I deal with, you know, more junior people in my team that maybe aren't used to this so much, um, I can see how it is more of a struggle for them than for, I want to say, some of my more seasoned people. And by seasoned, I just mean people that have been in the workplace for longer.

Charlotte Ward: 2:30

Yeah, yeah. Um, I think that's a really interesting point, actually, that you allude to there. That may that maybe there is something here about it being a skill, you know, just just being comfortable. It's a muscle change, it's a muscle that you have to develop, and and and the environments that both you and I work in are environments that give us an opportunity to exercise those muscles every hour of every day, aren't they? For sure. Um I actually think, and I really quite strongly believe this. I this is the parent in me coming out now, but but I actually think that the biggest advantage that anyone can go into the workplace with, and therefore the biggest advantage actually, we should be the biggest um attitude and approach to life that we should be developing in our children, therefore, is the a the ability to cope with or at least accept change and not be scared by it and be willing to engage with it rather than fear it or or or deny it, right? And I think I think that you know, I I kind of I homeschool, and for me that's kind of what I just desperately want my children to approach the world with as grown-ups, is is an acceptance of of change being a fact of life in the same way it is for us in our working lives every day. But I would just love to see people in my team develop that and people join my team with that attitude already. Um it's just the biggest advantage. I think it's a bigger advantage than most you know, most kind of educational qualifications out there, because you can adapt and we need to adapt, don't we?

Natalie Ruhl: 4:16

We need to adapt all the time. I mean, you know, specifically like taking the last year into account, like, you know, it is if you if you're not how if you're not flexible, if if it's hard for you to sometimes also sit a little bit with discomfort of like trying things out, seeing how something moves now differently to it to how it has before. Um, I I can see how it's really hard for you. And as a manager, you know, um, it then is on me to kind of be the glue in between those new parts that kind of have to be re-u-engineered um to make sure that people get over that initial reaction of just like wanting to push it away, which I think is also a very human thing to do. Um change, I mean, you know, we see with our customers, change something in your product, change something in your messaging, change the position of something, and people, um, there will be a portion of people that immediately will say, Well, I don't, I don't like it, you know. And it's you you ask them again two weeks later, and they're like, What do you mean you changed something? It's it's it's that like overcoming that initial um discomfort and staying open to this potentially being something good. This is not to say that change can go horribly bad. You know, there are, I think, a few key things to to consider, and and one for me that I think we have like talked about it comes up in in so many um workplace conversation conversations is transparency with your people, showing them how and why something is done, giving context, and just easing the walk up that struggle hill of change so that you know we all can enjoy um the ride down once we've managed it.

Charlotte Ward: 6:20

Yeah, yeah. That's that's um that sort of transparency is is important. I think it's something that I know like I know when the way I approach change personally, not in terms of like managing other people through it, but the way I approach it is always trying to think of it with a positive attitude, not with like this, you know, air quotes Americanized kind of oh no, I'm a not the positive mental attitude of of you know like 20 years ago, but but actually just thinking that it's very likely to have a positive outcome. But I will always hold in reservation the knowledge, and it is the knowledge, that it might also have a negative outcome, it might not be for the best, but yes, but but uh and I think that actually it's difficult to convey that sometimes because you you are as a leader talking about things. I certainly try and talk about change in a positive manner because I think that's the only way to engage with it. Yeah, um, but I think it can be difficult to convey that when you're also trying to be transparent. And I one thing that I always struggle with is finding that balance. It's like having conversations along the lines of this is the change, I think it could be good, I think it will work, and then almost like the throwaway line at the end of it might not, but we'll live with that, you know.

Natalie Ruhl: 7:52

Yeah, and it's okay, you know, like yeah, I think you you're right. Also, you know, you must not forget that we are in the privileged position that we mostly know more about this change than than people um that that we work with. And um sometimes there is kind of that wall that we can't really, you know, break in in in terms of transparency or or whatnot. And and that for me can sometimes be hard because in like I don't really believe in that wall. Um I think you know we're all adults in the workplace, so um, there are a lot of things that I think we can be more open with in general in the in the in the world of business, um, because I strongly believe that it's easier to get people to commit to something when they are very clear how and why this is done.

Charlotte Ward: 8:48

Yeah.

Natalie Ruhl: 8:49

Um, and so that can be a struggle. At the same time, it's also you know, a very different mindset, I think, to look at the people in the workplace right now versus looking at, for example, at how my parents worked. There was very much uh a different experience and a different attitude always so towards like a decision coming from like top down that wouldn't be accepted anymore today. Rightfully so, I think. Um and I think that's a great move we're making because I feel you know, like the diverse looking at at problems and looking at change is only helpful because we will consider more angles and therefore come out with a stronger uh end result, even though there might be more discussion along the way. Um but you know, like a few years back, it was would have just been like, oh no, management said and we do. And I'm grateful that that isn't the case anymore. And I think it makes managing change harder in some ways, um, but a lot easier in so many others that I'm I happily will will take it for sure. Um and it also helps me to instill in people the feeling of let's try it, or let's disagree and commit even. Um, you know, let's let's let's you know, you might not believe in this. The majority does give yourself, you know, a bit of a shove, let's get this done, and we'll talk about it after. I'm the last person that will not admit that maybe we like it was wrong, but then we'll we'll live with the wrong. Um we'll we've learned something and at least we've tried. Without trying, like there's it'll be very boring. And so I'm actually quite grateful to be in a place where we are approaching change more openly than not, I would say.

Charlotte Ward: 10:56

Yes, yeah, and and that disagree and commit thing, I think, is sometimes all you can ask of people. But I think if you can get them to engage in that, knowing that something has to change, you know, it as you said, there there is what is it, Yoda says, there there is no try, there is only do or do not do, or something like that. Yeah. Um but but that that's essentially disagreeing commit when it comes to change, isn't it? And and and saying that, you know what, if we do, if we get stuck in the considering phase for too long, this isn't gonna happen. And we're we're we're gonna be in neither the the the better, hopefully better place of post-change or in the past, in the rosy kind of nostalgic past. We're gonna be stuck in this point of contention if we can't get past it. So disagreeing, commit, and and just absolutely we'll talk about it afterwards.

Natalie Ruhl: 11:53

Yeah, there's a time like I think that is also something that like I would tell people if someone was like, you know, like, but how do we make sure that we eventually, you know, get the change done? It'll be communicated very clearly um when is the time to ask for opinions and discuss, and when that time window is closing, because we're now we've now made a decision to move um in in what direction, um like whatever direction, but um there comes the point where discussion will just keep you, uh and as you said, like it's important to then maybe give in to um the majority of people who might come up with a change for you to say, told you so. But you know, it's um I think it's it's also giving others within a team um or even management the benefit of the doubt to think that they, you know, like have the best interest uh in mind. And if if that isn't the case, then we're talking about a whole other problem. But um I think that again, that flexibility and just allowing anything to you know change and being able to accept that is just at the core of everything. I think the two big uh values and attitudes for me um that are coming are flexibility and empathy.

Charlotte Ward: 13:37

That's it for today. Go to customersupportleaders.com forward slash one nine seven for the show notes, and I'll see you next time.