51: Panel: Women Leaders in Support

Charlotte Ward: 0:13

Hello and welcome to session 51 of the Customer Support Leaders Podcast. I'm Charlotte Ward. Today here five leaders talking with me about women in support leadership. Today I'd like to welcome some awesome leaders to the podcast. First up is Lauren Rose Imers. Lauren is a support lead from Big Cartel, and she's constantly using her background as a mental health counsellor and genetic counsellor to better navigate the tech and support spaces. I'd also like to welcome Natalie Petruche Trent. Natalie is a technical account manager at Pandium, coming from five years of experience specialising in customer implementations for e-commerce and entertainment. And also welcome to Erica Mancuto. Erica has for over 15 years built and led client-facing teams for SaaS companies serving the healthcare market and is currently responsible for service revenue generation at Enthrive. And welcome also to Angelica Tison, who is part of the Toronto Tech community and moved into a customer experience leadership role about a year and a half ago, building teams within customer experience, including user support, professional services, and customer success. She's currently part of the customer success team at TrueFan. And finally, I'd like to welcome Nate Brown. Nate is a student of all things customer experience and co-founder of CX Accelerator. So I've gathered all you wonderful leaders here today on the 18th of March, a little adrift from International Women's Day, which was my original target for recording this show, but we live in slightly trying times. Nonetheless, I want to really thank you so much for finding time to spend time with me talking about something that isn't the topic that's on everyone's mind. So here we are talking about International Women's Day and women in technical support, women in customer support, women in support leadership, women in leadership in general. And I have some really burning questions. So I'm gonna hit the ground running. I'm gonna throw open the first topic to the panel. And my first topic is to become a leader, is it enough to do your job well? That's my kind of headline question here. And uh around that I'd love to hear your thoughts on whether you think meritocracy exists as a pure concept at work in the world. Um what actually works when it comes to becoming a leader and and and making those strides towards leadership as a female? Um and what doesn't work, what needs to change? I'll I'll jump in there.

Erica Mancuso: 3:12

Um you know, I've been in situations where we've promoted a top performer, a top individual contributor to a management role or a leadership role, and it hasn't worked out so well. Just because they're an ideal, you know, they're they're an exemplary employee doesn't mean they're going to be a great leader. Um, and I've seen that several times throughout my career. Uh, I think for individuals wanting to get into more of a leadership role, they kind of have to start, you know, start acting like they're in a leadership role, um, you know, taking on stretch assignment, maybe mentoring others, identifying areas for improvement and running some projects, things like that to really get the folks, you know, even up above them in their organization starting to see that they can handle the additional leadership responsibilities.

Natalie Petrusch Trent: 4:02

I would agree. I think that um managing up is a really great way to prove that you're ready for a leadership position as well as to actually exemplify that in practice. Um, I think that there's also a large degree of emotional intelligence that's necessary to become a leader as well. Um, I know that all of the best leaders and mentors that I've ever had in my experience have had a large amount of emotional intelligence as well as emotional vulnerability for their um employees that they're managing.

Nate Brown: 4:37

Well stated. I I would definitely agree with that. I mean, in my in my experience thus far, I mean, those leaders that are just really exceptional, it's almost a motivation and psychology thing. I mean, if you were to go back and ask them, do you want to be a leader, a leader to further your own career, or do you want to be a leader to help those around you? Those that are great leaders are gonna answer I I want to help those around versus making my own career something really great and special and something that I can be proud of. You know, it's a lot of that's just not gonna translate to success for for anybody except maybe that person, and probably not even that person. I love there was a thing on Inc. recently where it talked about like the most promotable people that are coming into leadership and the qualities that we look for now and how different it is than ten years ago. Humble, not arrogant, servants, not self-serving, optimistic, not pessimistic. Think forever, not just today. Volunteers, not draftees, self-aware, not selfish, and adaptable, not rigid, and then last, teachers, not truant officers, and how different is looking for this person that really authentically wants to serve others, and those are the leaders that we can and should be promoting.

Charlotte Ward: 5:50

Do you think that there is uh from that list a particular set of traits that might be more aligned with being a woman in support, or do you think that all of the qualities and that we're talking about are uh non-gender specific?

Nate Brown: 6:12

I I think definitely women are more equipped to to come in with an attitude of humility and and servant-heartedness. I I think that is more of a natural characteristic that that you have and that's wonderful and and that I think is rising to the surface in a really good and positive way. I think we are having to recognize and adapt to the fact that that is so desirable and so positive.

Charlotte Ward: 6:38

So it's really the landscape of leadership that's changing, perhaps then, that's affording more opportunities for for everyone.

Natalie Petrusch Trent: 6:44

I would definitely agree with that. I think that um dovetailing off of that, one of the things about being a leader is the capacity to actually pass down knowledge, absorb knowledge, and then disseminate that in ways that are really approachable and understandable. And I think that's something that kind of culturally and from a societal perspective is something that females are, you know, sociologically more prone to. And I think that um that is also something that the new generation of men coming up is also more prone to, which I think aligns very well with the way that society as a whole is um moving forward.

Charlotte Ward: 7:46

Yeah. So as society changes, do you think that the playing field will will just naturally level, that everyone will eventually be afforded those same opportunities because they are embodying all of those characteristics that we're now looking for in leaders, regardless of their gender? Or do or do you think that um there is other change that needs to happen for this to be a pure meritocracy of leadership?

Lauren Eimers: 8:16

I um I feel we're a long way off. I I love that we are seeing change in our industry. Um, but I think just like we were saying, society changing at large is this isn't just a, you know, a female, I'm doing air quotes, a female trait of um caring and cultivation, um, humility, um, being a teacher. These were all traits that were ascribed to female identifying people. And it's society that we have to rewrite that book. This shouldn't be a female or a female identifying trait. This should be a human being trait. And some human beings are better teachers, are better carers, and it has nothing to do with an X or a Y chromosome or the gender that you present as, or the gender you feel you should be, or a gender. I mean, I think we have so far to go. I hate to be negative, Nancy, but I think while we are still taking steps, it is still very clear that we are, we as women or women identifying people are not being given the same opportunities. We aren't even given the same dang pay still. 2020, folks, I'm still earning 77 cents to the dollar of a male counterpart with the same training, same amount of experience. So, yes, this is so much better than it was for my parents. And my parents had it so much better than their parents before them. But that being said, um, I do think talking positively about it and talking about the change, it is going to be a long, long way to go.

Charlotte Ward: 10:45

Yeah.

Lauren Eimers: 10:46

So I I do think while we're moving there, we still have a very, very long way to go.

Charlotte Ward: 10:51

I think you raise a few interesting points there, Lauren. Um, first of all, while we are sat here, with the exception of Nate as a panel of women, um uh that um privilege and and that privilege is a great a grayscale, isn't it? There are 50,000 degrees of privilege, really. It's a continuum that that we happen to be for the purposes of this one day splitting the the uh general populace into two genders, roughly. Um that uh, you know, and here we are with approximately half identifying as female, celebrated, advanced on this day. I guess the interesting question that popped into my head is do we need A, do we need International Women's Day or and or is it outdated as a concept already? Do we need something else that represents and talks about celebration and inclusivity and equality that isn't this gender divide?

Natalie Petrusch Trent: 12:12

I think um just kind of dovetailing off of what Lauren was saying, that I think that International Women's Day is something that is still very much needed, but I think that it is important that we pay more attention to exactly where you were saying the scale of that. Um, there are compounding factors. So while there may not be as much discrimination specifically against female identifying individuals anymore, there is that compounded by ageism versus racism versus all the other isms.

Erica Mancuso: 13:18

Yeah, agree. And you know, do we need an actual day? I think we do right now. It's very important. I would love to get to a point where we don't need a day because, like Lauren said, you know, our society has changed. But right now, I would probably argue that the remaining 364 days of the year, those are men's days. Just with the way the way our society works.

Charlotte Ward: 13:43

Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, let's move on then in terms of our discussion points and talk about what uh we have experienced in our careers and some of those challenges that we've come up against, some of which are, you know, uh going to be continuations of the discussion we just had around privilege and and opportunity. But um, I'm particularly interested in if you have any personal stories of uh professional challenges as a woman in support, as a woman leader, as a woman in technology, any and all of those things, or perhaps Nate, if you've you've seen some of this from the outside, some of the challenges. What what what are the biggest professional challenges you've experienced or seen, and and what do you feel has in those circumstances particularly held you back?

Erica Mancuso: 14:48

You know, I hate to say this, but I think other women have um been some challenges in throughout my career. You know, I'm just thinking of perhaps situations where I've been interviewing for an opportunity and the hiring manager is another woman. And I like to think that I come across as a fairly confident, you know, capable uh person. And I feel like there's been some situations where, you know, everything seemed to be going really well throughout that interview process, and then suddenly it wasn't. And I can't get really any kind of um feedback about where things went wrong. And, you know, I suspect that perhaps the hiring manager may have felt threatened by me just because I'm also a confident, capable individual. Um, and I hate that. Uh, I really try to, you know, create opportunities from from you know, for other women who maybe aren't quite as far along in their career. I want to mentor other women, I want to help them achieve some of their professional goals. I don't think that we are gonna get anywhere and and drive some of the higher order societal changes that Lauren was talking about by, you know, viewing this as a scarcity kind of thing, right? There is an abundance of opportunity out there for all of us.

Charlotte Ward: 16:25

Very true. Do you think that um part of the issue there when it comes to hiring managers um being female and feeling like you are at the mercy of whether they like or dislike you for whatever reason that might be that isn't specific enough for them to presumably be able to give you the feedback you're looking for. Do you think that it is jealousy, or do you think that I I mean, I I where I'm going with this, I'm meandering a little bit, but where I'm going with this is I've been in those kind of sit very similar situations as well with female hiring managers. And I think that for me, part of the problem has been that I don't necessarily conform to what women expect other women to be like and to behave like.

Erica Mancuso: 18:23

That could very much be you know part of it, Charlotte. And I would say that you know, those things that you just described, perhaps those misunderstandings and and the way we show up at work is perhaps you know, we're going to challenge the status quo a little bit in certain certain situations. We're going to stand up for ourselves. I've encountered that with men as well in the workplace, right? You know, that is not the expectation that they have of me. They want me to be more of a quiet, you know, agreeable kind of person, but that is not the kind of that is not the kind of leader I am.

Natalie Petrusch Trent: 19:17

I think something else that's worth bringing up is that uh when I first entered the workforce, um I was coming in with some my family. My my father is, you know, the strong businessman, and my mother was more of a caretaker role, very stereotypical white picket fence family. Um, and from a young age, I was very much in the mentality that showing emotions, especially feminine emotions in a work environment was not acceptable. And coming into the workforce, that was something that I very much had to intentionally work to eliminate and to get that out of my mindset.

Angelica Tison: 21:14

I think that's interesting because I think for me, my biggest challenge was burying those emotions that are deemed like feminine or have been ingrained that are feminine. And what I mean by that is that when I first started in tech, um, first of all, I think the age comes in too. I'm quite young. Um, so I was very shy, and that's just me as a person. Um, I don't like, you know, speaking up until I know all the information, and that's very much how I operated. However, when I raised my hand to start a team or get into a leadership role, the main thing that was said to me was like, okay, well, then you need to speak up or you need to be more aggressive, because only women who do that will get recognized or will be heard, basically. And that was literally the words that were given to me as part of feedback for how do I get into a leadership position.

Nate Brown: 23:08

It's been an interesting journey for me because coming into the workforce, and I think uh I think it was Natalie that made the comment of of your heart being on your sleeve. And that was very much me. And uh I just got pounded and pounded for that. I I have years, almost a decade's worth of performance appraisals where that was called out as being a negative attribute and was preventing me from being able to move forward in my career.

Lauren Eimers: 24:22

I think you all touch on a super important um point in that women and women identifying folks are given an incredibly narrow amount of space in which we can operate. We aren't allowed to get overly emotional, but we must show enough passion and fight for what's right. But we if we are to show those feelings, we must give justification for that. Um we can't be we can't seem weak because we are showing emotion, but we need to be strong if we are soft-spoken. I mean, it's a double bind.

Charlotte Ward: 26:49

Yeah. I think when it comes to hiring, you're absolutely right that if you remove all of the influences that might negatively affect you as a candidate, if you completely were to redesign the perfect system that took away any uh recognition of your gender, your age, your you know, the school you went to, whatever, then you really are looking at a list of skills. And that's a way to do hiring, but that's not that's not perfect either. Do you think there is there? Do any of you feel like you have any thread of how we approach being able to hire someone based on their true self and their their potential as well as their abilities and the value they're gonna bring to the organization and to your team with with maximizing removal of that bias, unconscious or conscious.

Lauren Eimers: 28:25

I just read about a company that had actually trained um AI to parse through, you know, every single resume to hire most fairly, all you know, um identifying factors were taken out. They started looking for keywords, parsing these resumes and cover letters. And guess what? It was still biased because it was picking up on words like aggressive, ambitious, winner, doer. And what are these words ascribed within our culture still? So I don't think that's the answer either. Um I think Erica made a wonderful statement about how you know you have found success, but you also try to help those behind you. And I don't think there's a perfect answer, and I think we are going to continually be figuring it out, but I do know a truth in that you have to leave the door open behind you to help those who are coming up as well.

Charlotte Ward: 29:43

I think it's interesting as well that that we all effectively told the same story that we'd had all these difficulties and then we found the place.

Natalie Petrusch Trent: 29:52

Yeah, very much so. Um, and what I'm sure a lot of you guys have felt, but you you walk in, you're there for a day, a week, a month, and you still feel happy to be coming to work every day. You feel supported. And a big thing for me was I felt that I was able to be myself and be the best version of myself without having to conform to an identity uh that someone else was trying to create for me.

Charlotte Ward: 30:50

And I think, you know, as time has gone on, I'm I I I wrote about this recently. I my degree course was very male-heavy. I was one of about six or eight on a course of 80. Um, and um, when I went into tech straight out of university, I was one of even fewer women in that space. Um, and I got used to being around men and dealing with men professionally and putting up with the locker room talk of the late 90s, you know. Um, and I think that I changed my behaviour because of that.

Erica Mancuso: 32:20

And and also an environment that understands that you know men and women have priorities outside of work, right? We have families, we have kids that get sick at school, and sometimes sometimes that impacts your work day. It's unfortunate when that happens, but you know, I'd say I've been fortunate to work for organizations that that understand that.

Charlotte Ward: 33:04

So let's move on to our next discussion point then, which is I hope a more positive one now that we have uh decided there really isn't much we can do about society right now, but maybe given time we can. But again, I'm I'm interested in um what your personal stories are on the positive side. What who has had the who or what really has had the biggest positive influence over your career and have had a massively positive impact on your professional life?

Natalie Petrusch Trent: 33:35

Um I feel like I'm talking a lot here, uh, so I apologize about that. Um, but I I definitely do have a lot of feelings about this. Um a mentor in specific that I I really loved and appreciated and really should really do try to base at least a portion of my managerial style off of is um my mentor when I was at uh Handshake, uh not the recruiting one, B2B commerce. Um, but my uh manager at the time was very, very open and very transparent about uh bandwidth, work-life balance, and then also mental health.

Nate Brown: 35:00

Yeah, for me, it it wasn't as much of a boss. I mean, we kind of had this fascinating thing happen where there was this diversity and inclusion initiative that was rolled out inside of a major enterprise organization and just really seemed like it missed the mark in terms of actually serving the people that it was meant to serve in a meaningful way. Felt like a very check the box type of scenario. And and through their voice and through their assistance, I was able to really reconcile a lot of the things that were going on and the heart behind a lot of this dialogue.

Charlotte Ward: 36:31

Why why did you think that that program was hitting the was missing the mark? Uh what was it that struck you particularly that wasn't uh quite right?

Nate Brown: 36:43

The wonderful things that they had all accomplished before anything actually happened. And they would do that publicly before anything inside the organization changed at all. Well, it was my opinion and my interpretation of that, which gave me the opinion of this is just a dog and pony show. This is them just trying to give an impression to the outside world that they are doing a thing to give a perception and give an appearance when in reality nothing inside this house has changed.

Charlotte Ward: 37:11

I think we've all been in organizations like that. Do you think that aspiring female leaders, and I'm alluding to something Erica and Lauren touched on before about leaving the door open? Do you think that aspiring female leaders need mentors and advocates? And do you think those mentors and advocates need to be other women?

Erica Mancuso: 37:38

I think all leaders can benefit from mentors. Um, but but I do certainly think it's helpful to have leaders, uh, female leaders paired up with other female leaders. I think that, you know, there is this crazy world out there that we're trying to navigate, and it it very much still is a man's world, and we are forced to adapt to it in many cases.

Charlotte Ward: 38:31

Yeah, so it's not really a thin one one in at a time. It is eventually a stream of people coming through those doors that you're holding open.

Angelica Tison: 38:42

I also think, especially for um younger women who might be just starting or looking to move into leadership positions from individual contributors, it's just easier to see yourself there when you see somebody there already. Um and you know that they've done it and you know that it's possible.

Erica Mancuso: 39:40

I would say too, the other benefit of having a female mentor, um maybe someone who's a little bit further ahead in their career than you are, is that you have the benefit of having their advocacy. And I think that that is so important.

Natalie Petrusch Trent: 40:11

The last thing I would add there is I think that we all need mentors that we can relate to and will lift us up. But I think that we all need mentors across genders that will also challenge our perspectives. I think just diversity in opinions is always a good idea to surround yourself with.

Lauren Eimers: 40:37

And also speaking as a mentor to others, I learned so much from the people that I mentor that come to me as well. It's a two-way street. It doesn't have to be unidirectional.

Charlotte Ward: 43:10

I'm with you. I think that uh actually I'd kind of like to get away from the idea of mentors and mentees, like it's a one-directional process. I think that uh I have even now in this stage of my career, I I still learn from my mentees as well. Do you think that dare I say older female leaders or maybe female leaders with more experience would be a slightly more analytically correct way of putting it? That um women with more experience in the workplace need to be reminded to be mentors. Need to be reminded to leave that door open.

Erica Mancuso: 44:21

Yes, potentially. You know, I think going back to the idea of this, you know, man's world that we have lived in for so long, and and they've been great for them for finding success in that world. Um, kudos to them. But the world looks a lot different now than probably when they were coming up through the ranks. So yes, it probably would be beneficial for them to be reminded of that, right?

Lauren Eimers: 45:15

I think the scarcity mentality doesn't discriminate. I think the scarcity mentality is alive and well across all age groups. Um, but I I don't want to negate the fight that the generation before me had to make when they were the only woman, you know, in their division. Um, so to protect yourself is to build a shell, right? And after years of cultivating that shell, it's gonna take time to break it down and realize like I'm not here for your job. I want you to help me get another job too. Like there's enough pie for us all.

Erica Mancuso: 47:26

We need um more people, men and women, reading Brene Brown.

Lauren Eimers: 47:31

I keep saying if we all just went to therapy and we all had a therapist, and of course I'm biased since I'm a therapist, like we'd be doing a lot better.

Charlotte Ward: 47:55

I think as someone who started their career in in the kind of mid-90s, uh, as I said before, in a really male heavy environment that um I definitely moulded my behavior to suit that environment. And it is and you know, it was a different time, the workplace was a different place. Uh people behaved differently, expectations were different on both sides, and uh some of the things that I experienced would be in tolerable now, as you said, Lauren.

Natalie Petrusch Trent: 50:26

Well, and even with that, it's it's still incredibly different even within our own industry. Depending on what vertical you're working in, it can still be much more male dominated or much more female identifying dominated. And I think that another big barrier of getting more female mentors and just more mentors in general, like regardless of gender, is I think that um the the younger generation really is dealing with um imposter syndrome.

Charlotte Ward: 51:47

Yeah. So so Natalie, you segue very nicely into discussion point four, which is all about demons. So I'd love to sort of briefly and to give our listeners some context. I'd kind of hope to get to five points today. So we're on point four. Um, but I'd I'd love to I'd love to kind of feel out how we feel uh what our demons are. Imposter syndrome is the big one, isn't it?

Natalie Petrusch Trent: 52:31

Um I think that is probably one of my demons. Um that being said, it's a demon that I I feel I've mostly overcomed at this point. Um, especially when I was doing a lot of work more in uh B2B e-commerce, it was it was mind-boggling to me that I'm sitting here as a then, let's say, like 24-year-old woman dealing with hundreds of thousands of dollars in uh transactions, and that if I press one button, this entire business is gonna blow up. Um I feel like at moments like that, it's it would almost feel a little bit weird not to feel imposter syndrome.

Angelica Tison: 53:28

Yeah, for sure. I think imposter syndrome is literally my biggest demon. It's my like every day. And I think uh that's amazing that you've got through it, Natalie, but like I'm like definitely just at the beginning of it. But um uh I think I think the biggest thing that has helped me, again, I'm not over it yet, but is just the leaders that I have had and I've been very fortunate to have have just been so transforming.

Erica Mancuso: 55:00

Yeah, and you hit on a kind of interesting idea there, Angelica, when you said, you know, this is the first time we're all doing this. I feel like as soon as I realized that, like, hey, I don't have to know all the answers. I don't need to know how to do this right, you know, right out of the gate. I need to, you know, approach things with a sense of inquiry and and curiosity.

Charlotte Ward: 55:53

I think that's really a key part of my experience over the last couple of years as well, that I've been freelancing in this space for a couple of years. And when I started as a consultant, I still thought that consultants had to know everything before they consulted in the field. And what I've come to realize is that consultants know possibly even less than we do. They're just willing to say, you know what, what I'm gonna do is sell you some time to go and research that and figure out how you need to do it or what advice I need to give you.

Erica Mancuso: 56:58

Yes, absolutely. That is, I think, fantastic career by career advice to anybody listening. Um, and I think probably more so as women than men, we tend to, you know, look at the the entire task and and and evaluate how do we stack up? How am I able to do that? Instead of really looking at it as a learning experience.

Charlotte Ward: 58:02

Oh no, that's all right. I was just saying the big stuff, but also the stuff that just takes us into little new territories that can be equally valuable.

Lauren Eimers: 58:34

It does. I was just going to say as well, instead of saying yes to planning office birthday parties or taking notes during meetings, which hard nose on all that, um, saying yes to job postings, if you don't fill out every single line item on that posting, still put your hat in the ring. Um, I think research has backed this up where women really don't go out for jobs or positions because they don't already fill every single one of those job descriptions.

Charlotte Ward: 1:01:17

Yeah. There's I I have uh two things I really want to hook on to there from what you said, Lauren. One is that, you know, yeah, the worst they can I I always tell people when they say, Do you think I could apply to this job? Do you think I should? I say yes, because of what we just talked about.

Lauren Eimers: 1:03:12

Well, mine's short, uh mine's short and sweet, and it's just a distillation of what we've talked about over the whole call. Is truly everyone is making it up as they go. Truly. Um, because once you get into a leadership position, you realize that the people who promoted you, they had no idea what they were doing either until they figured it out. So one, people are making it up as they go. And two, um, it's okay to hear no. And just to just reach a little bit further, get a little bit more uncomfortable than you usually would, because comfort zones aren't where growth occurs. And if you're not growing, you know, you're stagnating. So everyone's making it up and get a little scared once in a while. And um oh, one last thing. Leave the door open behind you, right? That's the most important one.

Charlotte Ward: 1:04:09

You were only allowed one, by the way, but we'll give you those three because they're good ones.

Natalie Petrusch Trent: 1:04:15

Um, I would say that mine's pretty similar. Um, I've I've been watching a lot of that uh Shia LaBeouf video, the just do it one, where he gives a big long motivational speech. And um I would say that would be it. Just do it. Just be your most authentic self.

Erica Mancuso: 1:04:52

So, Lauren, you took mine when you said leave the door open behind you. So maybe I'll it's okay. I'll expand on on the idea of you know, when you hear those no's, don't take it personally, right? It does not define who you are as a person, and you just have to, you know, brush it off and and keep trying and not be scared to try again.

Angelica Tison: 1:05:14

I think mine, oh, you all took mine. I think one quote that's coming to my head that one of my VPs told me uh was rise to a level of failure. And that sounds so weird, but it goes back to what you said, Lauren, about comfort zone. You don't grow in your comfort zone, you don't you don't thrive in your comfort zone. If you get those yeses and um you feel like you're comfortable, that's great. You're doing great work, but if you really want to push yourself and learn, you'll get to a level where you know you're gonna fail, but you're gonna try it anyway, and you're gonna learn from it.

Charlotte Ward: 1:06:06

All really important, great pieces of advice. I'm gonna add with two of my favorites, which are uh just around kind of around being a role model and leaving the door open and all of those things. One is that I think that we've established that mentors, advocates, whatever we want to call them, can come in any shape or form. They can be any gender, they can be any nationality, they can be any age. Uh, none of those things are a prerequisite for being a good role model. Um, and I think that we should all endeavour to be those good role models because I really think um that you can't be what you can't see. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, everybody, for taking part. I'm gonna wrap up there and say this has been a very informative and wonderful and uh uh entertaining discussion and inspirational discussion. Uh, and thank you all again. Um, but it was never expected to be anything less than all of those things, right? Thank you so much. That's it for today. Go to customersupportleaders.com forward slash fifty one for the show notes, and I'll see you soon.