102: Fireside with Ash Rhodes

Charlotte Ward: 0:13

Hello and welcome to session one hundred and two of the Customer Support Leaders Podcast. I'm Charlotte Ward. This week, join me for a fireside chat with Ash Rhodes. I would like to welcome back to the podcast this week, Ash Rhodes. Ash, it is lovely to have you back, and you are the first guest on my fireside. So or is it the first guest at my fireside, my virtual fireside? I'm I'm decided on that. What do you think?

Ash Rhodes: 0:50

Uh I would think at virtual fireside. As it so happens, I have never shown you, but this is my fireside. That is my that's my fireplace.

Charlotte Ward: 1:05

So I was expecting this to be near my fireside as the host, but we are right next to your fireside.

Ash Rhodes: 1:11

It is auspicious indeed.

Charlotte Ward: 1:13

Thank you for supplying the fireside for this fireside.

Ash Rhodes: 1:17

Happy to help.

Charlotte Ward: 1:19

So with the fireside, it's bring your own topic as well, like all good parties, right?

Ash Rhodes: 1:27

So BYOT.

Charlotte Ward: 1:29

Yeah. So so what would you like to talk about?

Ash Rhodes: 1:32

So I had figured that we would talk about something that was an issue for me uh in the last few months, wherein I had uh some something that had not really uh come up as as a problem before. And I had uh I was caught a little bit flat-footed. Um I had two specific instances that happened one right after another. So I will group it all together and just say uh that it was a an instance of missing representatives. Uh in one case, I had a representative who was one of my best. She was amazing in every way, but um she unexpectedly fell quite ill and so was gone for an extended medical leave. Uh, she's fine now, she's great. Um, but you know, things happen. But then in another instance, I had a representative who um I would say it's not really a fault of hers either, but we had just hired her. Uh we were in like halfway through her onboarding, and she had unbeknownst to me, been um also applying for another role, like everybody does when you are up looking for a job. And it was with a um it was with a a dream company. That dream company dragged their feet in offering her the role, and when they finally did, she I can't blame her, but she took it.

Charlotte Ward: 3:14

Right.

Ash Rhodes: 3:15

Um all of a sudden I ended up with two different instances of missing reps. How do you deal with that?

Charlotte Ward: 3:24

Right, wow, okay, and and and yeah, uh not just missing, but unexpectedly missing quite so. Yes, we were which is the extra challenge.

Ash Rhodes: 3:34

Yes, and as it so happens, this these two instances overlapped. So I found myself um it was a a fairly small team, and so we were very desperately uh understaffed, even more so than usual. So it was um quite the uh I'm not gonna say emergency because you know, um, but but it was we were left scrambling to to solve the problem.

Charlotte Ward: 4:04

Those are two quite different situations, actually, aren't they? Although they're both unexpected. Um talk talk me through the the first one, your uh your medical leave. Yeah, your medical leave, your experienced rep. Um, and and how you dealt with that one.

Ash Rhodes: 4:22

Well, uh there were a couple of different things that we immediately had to to take care of, which is that I mean, especially when you have a small team, um, everybody wears a bunch of different hats, but you also find that some people over time have taken on certain responsibilities that are distinctly theirs. Um and then you kind of lose track of them. Oh my goodness, what did this person do that were only theirs? Have we have we lost sight of those? Um, of course, this person had. And so um, of course, I'm not going to bother them while they are in the hospital um or recuperating or what have you. Um before I go any further, let me back up just a little bit. What I first did is make absolutely sure that they were okay. Um, I don't want to sound like some sort of monster or anything along those lines.

Charlotte Ward: 5:20

Yeah.

Ash Rhodes: 5:21

And and I really genuinely think that's what everybody should be doing. I made sure that that they were okay and that their job would be okay, because I I do think that that is also part of our responsibility as leaders.

Charlotte Ward: 5:34

It is. It's super important. I mean, I think that I found myself severely conflicted at several times in the past where I've had people who have had to take leave for medical reasons or whatever personal reasons that frankly leave you in a very difficult situation as someone who's still still got a team to lead and a business to run and coverage to arrange and everything else, right? And there are I just that conflict is huge. You you want to be over there helping them, helping them heal, helping them, you know, take the space or the benefits or whatever it is that they need. You want to help them in every way you can. And yet you you also need them back, frankly. Well, of course. If we're being honest, if we're being honest, if it's an experienced rep and they're good, you want them back without, but but also at the same time, you have this other piece, which is you've still got all the work to do, you know. So it's a real conflict. And I've found myself kind of in feeling like a dog chasing its own tail sometimes in those circumstances. I don't know how you cope with that.

Ash Rhodes: 6:47

Oh no, absolutely. And um, and I've I personally have found that at least in this situation, that the best thing that I could do was to make absolutely certain that they had all of the the space and resources to get better so that they were able to come back and to be the resource in the future and to make sure that they had um basically just the sufficient space to um to to heal. Um I know that I'm just being um pedantic at this point, but um the the company at first just simply didn't have a long-term medical leave policy. I it just had never come up before. And so uh I had to sit down with our HR uh department and then HR had to sit down with our CEO and write one so specifically for this rep so that we could make sure that there was a place waiting for them when they came back. Um because if we hadn't, um if we just simply went by our policy that existed before this, there they wouldn't have had a a place waiting for them. And it that that was unacceptable. That was that that would have been cutting off our nose to spite our face, and it was just um so after we did that, so with that laid as the groundwork, um we like step 1.5 was to um like do a forensic accounting effectively of everything that that person genuinely did on a daily basis, because there's there's so much that goes into I mean, and I think anybody who works in a really chaotic startup type environment can understand that like everybody when you see something that needs to be done, you just do it, and that goes for everybody. And so, what are all the things that this person just did? Because if they didn't do it, nobody would do it. And so trying to figure out all of those things and making sure that they still get done and nothing falls through the cracks was was chaotic as can be. Um, so to this day, I do not, I am not entirely certain that we got all of it, but I think we got the vast majority of them.

Charlotte Ward: 9:28

Um it's it's it's it's another it's another point of conflict, isn't it? Because one way to get that order is to just go and ask the person. Because they're they're often the best place to understand what it is, all of those classes. Yeah, yeah.

Ash Rhodes: 9:42

On one hand, I don't I I'm a big believer in um just reaching out and asking people. Like reach out to the customer and be like, hey, we didn't quite understand your message. Can you please clarify or what have you? The exception is when someone's in the hospital, like that is the one time you don't ask someone about work.

Charlotte Ward: 10:06

Where was that Google Doc again or whatever? Yeah.

unknown: 10:10

Yeah.

Ash Rhodes: 10:10

You know, like I just don't feel like that's the appropriate time to to ask. So so I went way, way out of my way to um, and it as as it so happens with this person, I did um interact with them a few times, but it was a it I made again, I went well out of my way to make sure that work was never discussed at all. It was all just making sure that they were okay, like just talking about their recovery and and so on. Um, because the last thing they needed was to stress about work or to feel bad that they were out of work or anything like that. So yeah, uh, I ended up taking on a lot of it. I ended up working a lot of really, really long days. Um but we ended up hiring. We ended up hiring. It was it it ended up being a really good thing because it was uh I was able to um really paint in very, very vivid detail why we how we were so short staffed. One person leaving caused all of these ripple effects, caused all of these other things to to go wrong. Um, and if one person going out can cause that, what happens if someone else gets sick?

Charlotte Ward: 11:35

What happens if someone and for relatively short absence, right? I mean it was if somebody actually leaves, if somebody actually leaves, then that's a a much bigger problem, right?

Ash Rhodes: 11:46

Exactly, exactly. If we had someone quit, or if we had someone, I mean the the pandemic was going on at this point. Uh by that point, it was you it was not a matter of if, it was a matter of just like throwing a dart at the dartboard if somebody else was going to go down very badly. And and at this point, my my my rep in question had only been gone for about a week and a half when I was like, this is a problem. So uh we were able to post very quickly, we were able to to get um get approval for to to hire someone, and thus began this other problem.

Charlotte Ward: 12:28

Um so so tell me, have having done your skills audit, having understood all of the previously not understood work uh and the impact that that person was having on that work and the pain of when that person wasn't there to do that work, you make this new hire. And uh and then you have the second part of this story, right?

Ash Rhodes: 12:53

So yes, yep. So we reached the point wherein we were able to hire someone, and then as it so happens, we were able to hire somebody that um was already on our radar for from a previous uh job posting. So the the actual time from post to hire was very, very small, and so we um the actual job posting for the the customer service representative ended up getting shut back down almost immediately.

Charlotte Ward: 13:30

Um I mean, in theory, that's a nice nice place to be. I mean, I've it's a great place to be.

Ash Rhodes: 13:36

Please understand. No, that's that's wonderful.

Charlotte Ward: 13:38

Yeah, I mean, I I've had job postings open for months and months and months, and the effort involved and and the investment that you put into those those hirings are uh it's it's phenomenal over time.

Ash Rhodes: 13:52

It's an absolute uh slog to get uh the right person qualified people in and so on. This person, I cannot say enough good things about the person that that we were that that we ended up bringing in. Um the only reason I even mentioned the the the weird kind of dance is because um it was such a short period that that we brought it in. I want to to be clear that we didn't like uh just hire the first person that came across our desk. It was somebody that had been so fully vetted. And so we bring her in, and um like I said, just going right along, picking things up extraordinarily uh quick uh on the uptake for every single one of our systems. Um, so quick, in fact, that I felt bad because it almost felt like she was disappointed that there were so many things that she would ask these insightful questions. I'd be like, well, I don't know because I've never had anyone ask me that question in all of my time at this company. So I'm gonna have to get back to you. And she's like, okay, well, I'll just add it to the list. But oh man. So she was good, she was extraordinarily good. Um, and then I I took a uh a vacation day. And on that vacation day, I halfway through the day get this message from our head of HR like, you need to log in right now. Something's going wrong. And I'm like, oh god, oh god, oh god, oh god. And it was that she had the the hire had um wanted to tell me in person. And since I wasn't logged in, she had told HR in person that uh she had gotten this other job off. Oh and I mean so classy, like so classy. She didn't want to just do it via Slack or anything like that. Um so she still gave, even though she had only been with us a couple of weeks, a few weeks, she still gave two weeks notice. Um and and has even offered to to like help us source additional people to replace her and like literally everything great. I can again, I cannot give enough props to this person. Um but nonetheless, completely effed. Like so effed. So we immediately like literally that day, I stayed the whole rest of the day to repost that very, very shortened uh job posting for a a customer support rep. Um it has just been uh full disclosure. I have not I have now left the company, however, I was there for several weeks during that, and it was it it was just as nightmarish as you can imagine as we just discussed.

Charlotte Ward: 17:27

Just soul destroying to restart that whole process.

Ash Rhodes: 17:31

Exactly. It was exactly how you I can't find a single word better than soul destroying.

Charlotte Ward: 17:38

Yeah.

Ash Rhodes: 17:39

The the process of weeding, and I mean, we've both done interviews like as if it was our job, um, our soul job, like we may as well be recruiters at this point, just the you write the the job description to be as clear as you can. You include in the actual application some questions to to weed out people who just shotgun blast um applications. So you weed out a lot that way, then you do additional questions to weed out further ones, then you do initial uh 15-minute uh phone calls with ideally an actual recruiter, then you do like so no matter what your you you get it down and down and down, but it is still something that takes weeks, sometimes months to get to you 10, 15, 20 people, and you narrow it down to five, and you still don't necessarily find anybody that can actually do the job with the empathy and skills that are required. And it just so you have to start all over again.

Charlotte Ward: 18:59

And you know, I found that in that hiring process, when you get down to a two or three, we've talked about this before, I know. Sometimes you've got a clear favorite, even if you're doing due diligence on getting two or three or five down to a final stage, so you've got a good pick and you you're definitely sure that you're picking the the best. Quite often you've got a clear favorite. Um, but but sometimes you haven't, you know. I I just think sometimes, even with all the due diligence, if none of them feels quite right still and you put in all that effort, like the the process is just just it's relentless sometimes hiring. So the gratitude you feel when you get a good person in the door is immense. And and then and then they go. And as much as you may or may not, let's be honest, wish them joy, depending on the person. And I just think, you know, you just you you think you think you've got it. You think you found the one for that role at that time. And uh yeah, to be back to square one is hard.

Ash Rhodes: 20:12

I actually so no matter while yes, I am always um sad to see them go because it means I'm gonna have to embark on this desperately awful process again. I am genuinely always, always happy for them because uh I mean this even even my dad switched companies multiple times. So I think it's probably our grandparents' generation that that retired from the same company they started with. Yeah. Maybe I think it might even that I I think it was all just a fantasy. Nobody is going to retire. Potentially nobody's going to retire, but but nobody's going to retire from the company that they yeah.

Charlotte Ward: 21:03

Generally, you generally, definitely you do wish them well. And I I kid a little bit, but but you know, we we've all we've all had the odd hire who doesn't work out, but but just every once in a while. Once in a while, somebody slips through the net. And but you know, you know, but for whatever reason, right? Things don't work out. They get a better offer, great, you're happy for them. It's just sometimes it's just not a great fit, and you just know they'll do better. So, you know, you help them find it or they find it themselves and they do better, and you're happy for them. Sometimes it just doesn't work out because they, I don't know, so there was something you missed in that extensive hiring process.

Ash Rhodes: 21:47

Well, and I mean, the question is, is it something that you missed or something that they were just exceptionally good at hiding? Um because I mean it all comes down to being a practice of playing detective, of uh asking all of the right questions to ferret out the um, I don't know, the hidden sociopathy or the hidden lack of ability to actually do the skills that you're looking for, or what have you. Uh, we could do whole conversations about hiring practices that we don't have the time for that tonight. But but let me tell you the one thing, um, just because we're on the topic, the best piece of advice I ever got, and I it has served me so well, um, from the CEO of a company a couple companies ago. Um, and he always said that any hire that you make, you need to be excited to work with the person. If they do not engender excitement, like I cannot wait. And it it can be the like your next COO, or it could be just your next tier one level customer support route. It doesn't matter if they do not make you excited to bring them onto the team, it's the wrong hire.

Charlotte Ward: 23:19

Very true, very true. Thank you so much for joining me, Ash. It's been a wonderfully long, long chat with you by your fireside. Um, and uh thank so thanks again for bringing the fireside and uh yeah, a rare opportunity and a new opportunity on the podcast to come into kind of greater wandering depth on a topic. So that's been a pleasure.

Ash Rhodes: 23:45

It has been my pleasure to ramble with you about all sorts of things, and I look forward to the next time. Thank you very much.

Charlotte Ward: 23:53

Thank you so much. Talk to you soon. That's it for today. Go to customersupportleaders.com forward slash one hundred and two for the show notes, and I'll see you next time.