105: Panel: Support Leadership 2.0

Charlotte Ward: 0:13

Hello and welcome to episode one hundred and five of the Customer Support Leaders Podcast. I'm Charlotte Ward. This week we have another panel talking about Support Leadership 2.0. Today I'd like to welcome to the panel Ethan Wolfish, Zenny Bandy, Matt Dale, Craig Stoss, Josh Maxam, and Greg Skirving. Let's get straight to it. Hello, fellow support leaders. Thank you all for joining me again, or indeed some for the first time on this panel. Our topic for this week is what I have somewhat enigmatically called support leadership 2.0. And I want us to talk about the evolution of support leadership as a practice and profession. I think that's becoming increasingly recognized in its own right, in the same way that we've seen support as a practice evolve in recent years. So I've got a very open question for us to throw around and see how we feel about this to get us going, get us warmed up thinking about the future. I want to talk about past. What are the lessons of our past when it comes to support leadership? Where have things gone wrong historically for us, do you think?

Zeni Bandy: 1:37

I would say one place that things have gone wrong in the past is that customer support leaders have often not focused on the business goals of the company and have been very siloed. And what happens when support teams don't focus on the business goals is that they they become less relevant and their voice stops mattering in the company. And so one way to really stay aligned and uh have a seat at the table is to make sure that whatever objectives you're working on in your department, it actually matches what the company is trying to achieve that quarter or that year.

Ethan Walfish: 2:23

I think that's a great one. I think that um similar to that, I think that um we need to consider customer outcomes more than we have in the past, right? That it's not just an individual interaction that we're we're having, and that really teaching and coaching for thinking about how do we make sure that we're aligning with the company goals, but also with customer goals, I think is something important that um that maybe we haven't necessarily considered as much in the past as sort of considering point issues with individual customers.

Craig Stoss: 2:54

And I think combining both Zenny and Ethan's points, uh one thing that we focus on as leaders too much is is deflection, like stopping tickets entirely when really if we start focusing on serving the customers in a better or more effective way or providing better resources to our support teams, um, you know, we we can have those, we can achieve those customer outcomes and achieve the business uh needs, but but do so from a from a standpoint of not focusing on how can we get ready rid of as many tickets as possible. Um, because I feel like that that leads us down the cost center path, which uh support, I don't think should be considered.

Zeni Bandy: 3:35

Yeah, that's a good point. Uh something I actually have spoken with uh about with Charlotte is the idea of profitability with customer support. And one of the things that happens is if you if you focus on customer support being a cost center or focus on deflection, then you forget that actually these interactions, these relationships that your team is building with your customers actually are part of the experience that they're having that adds value and increases their loyalty and increases retention. And it's something also a lot of teams don't really track or pay attention to.

Greg Skirving: 4:09

I'm glad you brought up deflection. And deflection, I think, is a four-letter word. I think really, really what we're talking about is self-help. Um and I think, I think um it's important that as an organization we allow customers to service themselves, but more importantly, provide the guidance to the people on the front line as to what we will support and what we won't support. Um, I've seen in recent years um everything from um system administration level zero troubleshooting to full-blown professional services being provided off the off the help desk. And that's perfectly okay if that's what you want to do as a company, but providing the right guidance to the people so that uh that they're not just saying no or um you know, giving away the farm when they shouldn't be, uh that guidance is uh is is critically important for the for the frontline folks.

Ethan Walfish: 5:03

I think one of the things I've seen is is that having ambiguity as a frontline support person is is one of the most difficult things, sort of following along with that, is that if you really aren't sure what the scope of your support is, how far can I go? Should I go with this particular customer at this particular issue? It's something that creates friction and stress. It's something that's really unpleasant. And I think it's one of those ways that we think about how do we retain top talent among support teams. And that's one of the ways is to really make the job clear. What are the expectations of the job and make sure that that's something that doesn't create stress or frustration for the for our agents.

Zeni Bandy: 5:41

Yeah, that's a good point. I think it also goes into another issue of lessons from our past is um the issue of customers of customer support turnover and not enough focus and making those fulfilling and rich roles for the team members.

Ethan Walfish: 5:59

How do you guys do how do you guys think about in and sort of broad terms capacity modeling these days? One of the big things I frequently hear is people budgeting for 120% um capacity. Do you do you guys think about that in similar terms?

Charlotte Ward: 6:15

I actually think that a model that I encountered a little while ago for call centers is is quite a good one, which is just considering about your team in terms of customer-facing occupancy and how there is this kind of ideal band below which you're at risk of bore out, for want of a better word. I'm not entirely convinced by that phrase, but above which you're you're at risk of burnout and and uh and being too stretched. And and that band is sort of 70 to 80 percent. It's it's some somewhat of a nirvana, isn't it? But that that I think is the place that I always strive for now. Achieve is a different issue, but that's where I'm aiming for.

Matt Dale: 6:59

And I think that's sort of stuff when we start talking about you know capacity modeling and stuff, things that work at one company may not work at other companies. I think Xeny made the point earlier where you have to understand the needs of the business and the business goals. Um, I've I've watched our business goals change drastically over the last eight years as we've gone from a kind of an early stage startup to a much more mature company with um you know private equity backers that are looking at different different things and different metrics of success than than I think we were looking at at the beginning. And so being able to um, you know, when we talk about lessons of the past, I think applying the same framework today to today's problems as we applied successfully to last year's problems, I don't, or or that applied successfully in another company. I I don't think that works. I think we need to be looking at our our leadership responsibilities as leaders in support to say, hey, what makes sense right now for our company, for our customer base, uh, you know, for our industry, and what are the best practices that I can learn? What are the you know great things I can get from communities like support driven or from a podcast like this one? But then how does it make sense in in my goals and my team's goals, my company's goals, so that we can be successful today rather than, well, we've always done it this way? I think that's really hard. Like I look at myself and I think I fall into that quite often with my team, and I have to constantly be like, how do we how do we go forward? Forget, kind of almost forget the past, but or or learn from it, but but what makes sense from now and moving forward there?

Craig Stoss: 8:23

That's a great point, Matt. I think I think the the big lesson that that I've learned recently is that support demands from from customers, you know, on you know, in this nebulous aggregate of customers change. You know, five years ago, I don't think anyone would have had um in mobile app chat. And now you can see that as a trend that you don't want people to context switch to your website or um you know, phone phone a phone number. Uh, you know, five plus years ago we didn't have smart devices where you could embed support on a thermostat or a lawnmower. You know, I uh the the needs of our customers are changing, and we have to adapt support to those new demands to support our customers where they are and and how they want to be supported, right? Right in the in the context that they're in.

Matt Dale: 9:12

Do you do you actually provide support on lawnmowers? I'm just checking, Craig. Is that is that is that real? Currently I do not think. But I think do people do that? Is that a thing?

Craig Stoss: 9:21

Well, I I I mean they have displays on it that can tell you error codes and things that can help you guys support. But I I think ideally, yes. I if if I were creating smart devices, the support should be provided on the device. Like, like what why make someone I I use an example of my thermostat where uh my thermostat was doing something wrong. I played with a bit, couldn't figure it out, and I had to go and get a laptop and I had to, you know, go to their support page and figure out what it was and then go back. Of course, they can't provide support until I provide a serial number. Well, I had to go back to my thermostat and figure out my serial number. Like, why couldn't I just hit a button that said, you know, here's my support tickets? They they all they have keyboards. I need help.

Matt Dale: 10:02

It's not working. Call me do something so that we can work here. Yeah, no, it makes sense.

Craig Stoss: 10:06

And and and you know everything about me already. Why do I have to tell you my name, my email address, my location? Because you all the thermostat knows that about me by definition of what it's supposed to a service it provides. So I'm not saying that that that exists well today. I'm just saying it should exist because that's what customers want. They want to be able to get support where they are in the context that they are working.

Josh Magsam: 10:29

For me, I think that highlights a lesson that maybe we're still learning, which is that and and I see this, I mean, with with with our org, we we work with a number of companies because we're we're BPO, so we're providing service to you know 70 plus partners and climbing. And so you look at this and you go, some some places understand that technology can expedite the support process and actually make connections and support the customers' needs, whether that's in the service of a deflection in the name of cost cutting or in deflection in the name of customer effort reduction and higher satisfaction support. Um and I think there's still some corners though where it's like all I just have to do is get people into live contact with another person. All I have to do is just the only thing that's going to make customers happy is knowing that they're talking to a live person and that's in chat or on the phone. Um, and technology is in the way, and I want to remove those barriers and rather than thinking about the ways that technology itself actually removes those barriers and expedites. So there's kind of a resistance to to getting involved in technology at that level of, you know, yeah, I can just interact with the screen on the refrigerator and figure out why the ice cube maker isn't working, um, versus okay, let me go get my phone, find the the website, et cetera, et cetera. Um it's I I think for those who those of us who who are working in the field and and thinking about these questions on a daily basis, more and more of this seems obvious. But I think it goes back to Zenny's main point of like if you can't articulate that in the service of the business goals, you you don't get the traction for it. And so I think the resistance at a high level comes down to our inability to make that connection clear.

Ethan Walfish: 12:23

I think there's there's something else that's an interesting point raised there, which is um sort of customer effort, right? That by having the additional context from the thermostat, right, we have more information about that customer, we can make that an easier experience for them. And weaves into I think one of the trends that I've heard over the past few years, which I would frankly love to switch to, which is measuring customer effort score. Because I think that's a much more actionable metric that I think has been something that we've really learned from if we're talking about sort of things we've learned, is that CSAT has diminishing returns. It's pretty easy to get a really high customer satisfaction rating, but it's very hard to get a really high customer effort score. And I think that sort of tying in a bunch of these pieces is that is that we can only do that by getting the business to buy in to making that experience easier in order to do that. We need to convince the business that creating that easy effort for our customers is in service of uh the business goals.

Charlotte Ward: 13:23

I think that's a good thing.

Greg Skirving: 13:25

Go ahead, Charlotte.

Charlotte Ward: 13:26

Sorry, I was gonna say um I think that this transitions somewhat nicely to my second question, really, my second discussion point. But I think just bringing some of this together and particularly some of the the metrics and data points that have have been mentioned in in the last segment. Um maybe that is a big lesson of the past, right, in terms of leadership. It's it the the lesson is I think that that data doesn't tell you one thing and that no single metric is as enough of a story. No single metric tells you all the things you need to know about your support team or your support provision. And I think that historically is where I have found myself in support teams, certainly in larger organizations going back a decade or more, is a really simplistic view of metrics. And I think that that is changing. And I think that we're probably on the brink of quite an evolution in the way people handle those numbers and talk about those numbers, whatever those numbers may be, whether it's CSAT or whether it's CES or whether we're talking quality or whatever. We're seeing new metrics all the time. We're even just seeing better ways of looking at old metrics. And I think for me that's been a big kind of sort of lesson and evolution uh over the past decade or so that I've seen. So going on to our second discussion point then, how how do we take all of those things we've just talked about and apply them to our future? How do we take the things that we know were weren't handled very well or weren't necessarily great for our service, great for our teams, great for our our own individual um experiences as support leaders? How do we take all of those things, all of those lessons and apply them to our future? What does this next version of support leadership look like?

Matt Dale: 15:23

I think a good place to start as anytime we're looking at change is to kind of build in into ourselves a kind of a growth mindset. So instead of saying, hey, like this is the way it is, is the way this is all that we'll ever be able to do, approaching it and saying, hey, how can we get a little bit better at this? How can we get a little bit better at that? And and really doing that self-reflection and that reflection on our team, a reflection on our customers, their customer experience, like kind of looking at all those and going, what has changed? Where are we moving toward? Where do we want to be going going to and and what is it going to take to get there? What is valuable that we can hold on to, things that we've built that are really strong, because we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but but also what are the things that don't make sense anymore? And how can we how can we take this new data or take this new process and understanding of our customers and use that to move us individually as leaders, our our teams, our peers, and the rest of the organization and our customers and help help them get to where they need to be in this era that we're we're just kind of uh starting out right now.

Zeni Bandy: 16:22

I like what you said there, Matt, about being dynamic and continuing to evolve because anytime you solve a problem or launch an initiative and it works and there is success, it can be so hard to let that go and move forward and possibly, you know, throw that out with the bathwater. Um it's I think it's really important to not get too attached to our past successes because when you do that, it it does create that mindset of not being able to keep moving forward.

Matt Dale: 16:57

Well, it's kind of that that too attached is really good too. I was reading an article and I think it was talking about Steve Jobs, and it was basically like he had these very strongly held views, or he had these very um these strong views, but they're held very loosely. That is like this is the right thing to do until it's clear that this is not the right thing to do, and then I'm 100% that's not where we need to be, we need to be at this new thing. And the example I think was with the G4 cube when that was announced. It was like, this is the best device we've ever built, this is amazing. And in a lot of ways it was from a thermal management perspective and a bunch of stuff, but the marketplace didn't appreciate it. It wasn't it wasn't something that sold well, and and he was able to look at that and go, we did good stuff, but this isn't where we wanted to go. This is the direction we need to go. And and holding that that strong opinion, holding it loosely was was really a key to the success. I think that's that's what you're trying to say, or that's what you were saying, and you know, to put it a little differently. Exactly.

Greg Skirving: 17:48

Yeah, I think I think that's easily achieved if you separate the what from the how. I mean, I think we know what we we want to achieve. Um, and uh uh but I mean every year, whatever, obviously you need to grow. Like you said, Matt, you need to you you you you can't stay stagnant uh and you you have to look at the things that did work and are they working? I mean, it's always easy to look at the things that don't work, but is this still working and do we need to tweak it? Um and also for me, I think consistency across the organization um, you know, is especially vertically, you know, what what we want to achieve as an organization. And uh, you know, to what I'll go back to uh customer effort, self-service. Um, and and like I say, it's it's it's it's you you whatever you want to do, whatever level of support you want to provide, uh that's got to be consistent. Um and uh I think I think maybe we move so fast and things are growing so quickly and things are changing, and we're looking at the future and we're gonna we're gonna implement this system. I think you know, slowing down a little. Does this work? Do we really need to do this? I think I think that's important. And then, you know, um what whatever we're discussing in terms of planning, whatever we think we want to change, I mean, that's got to be communicated throughout the organization so that uh so that people know, people know uh how to react, how to act with customers, how to act interdepartmentally.

Josh Magsam: 19:14

So I think for me, part of the process of delivering that consistency is and a lot of companies are facing this right now as they are five to seven, ten years old, right, coming out of the the the startup boom, and is is understanding that maturing as an org doesn't mean you have to completely abandon some of that um scrappy inventive nature that might have got you there, but you do need to, you know, as as uh Matt, you said, you you do need to sort of not develop an attachment to your ideas or your structures or your plans and sort of realize it's it's okay to quote unquote grow up in a couple of corners and you can still take true stay true to your culture, your brand. Um The team structure, the program, the application, whatever that you sunk a lot of work into, it's okay to say, you know, we've outgrown that and it doesn't work for us any longer. And in order for us to achieve growth, maybe we need to go get an out-of-the-x solution, or maybe we need to look elsewhere and just not worry about sunk costs, worry about personal investment in it. Um someone else may have come up with a better idea. Just speaking as my personal experience, you know, working in a startup type company previously and with some others, there tends to be a sense of like we've come up with a better idea than anyone else. We we came up with the best mousetrap on the face of the planet. And then, you know, sort of realizing that how you've evolved that and the way you're supporting that in particular, someone else might have had a good idea. You can add that to yours. It doesn't make your idea worse, it doesn't make your product weaker. And matter of fact, it's a strength to realize that you can go out and lean on something that was developed for a million people instead of just 10,000 people, and and it's going to work for you.

Craig Stoss: 21:06

I just heard an interesting analogy a while ago, Josh, that fits directly into what you said. And it was kind of it was basically saying, you know, it depends how you frame things. You know, so the analogy was the train train companies in the US frame themselves as train companies. And so when people started using trains less, you know, their businesses took a downturn. If they had framed themselves as transportation companies and started evolving to serve the transportation needs of the people, they would have been more successful and probably many of them would have pivoted into different businesses or multiple businesses. Um and I love that analogy to apply to support, because I think that we quite often get so hung up on things like channels, or that you know, we are we we provide chat support or we provide email support, or you know, and it's like, okay, that's that's great. Those are things that we can do, but is that really what you do as a support department? Or do you have like a higher level need of providing some level of service, some some high touch, high context, whatever, whatever the buzzwords you want to use to your customers, and that service will evolve as as your products change, um, as you release new features, as new technologies exist, you know, all of those things. Because if you frame yourself as, well, we're we're the best chat support team in in you know in the startup world, well, eventually chat's not gonna be a thing. Uh, you know, virtual reality support might be the next thing, and we need to, you know, how do you adapt chat to that, right? So uh it was just a really cool analogy. And I think it it's exactly what you were saying, Josh, that that we need to be adaptable. We need to follow those trends. And so to me, at the speed we're moving, um, you know, when you ask the question, how do we apply these lessons and what does the next version of support look like? That's how I look at it is is let's follow the trends of what our what our customers are demanding.

Josh Magsam: 22:59

I had heard that one. I love that. I've got to go look that one up now. But I that that's a great example for me, trains versus transportation, just thinking of we we build one product, we build it well, and no one else can build it better than we can versus what's the actual core of what we deliver, how is that important to people, and how do we iterate around that rather than just staying on a rail. Yeah, I love it.

Zeni Bandy: 23:22

Exactly. It's taking it to almost more of a customer success viewpoint of what is the desired outcome of the customer and how is our team enabling the customer to get there? Uh, because that's what's really most important. Like the not it's not the how, it's the what.

Greg Skirving: 23:42

Well, and especially when it comes to uh introducing maybe different support mediums. I mean, if you're doing it just because you know you want to keep up with the Joneses, that's one thing. Your customers might not want that. So you have to really lead from their perspective as well.

Ethan Walfish: 23:58

I don't want my thermostat talking to me.

Matt Dale: 24:01

I don't want my lawnmower talking to me. I mean, seriously, like that's freaking me out, man.

Charlotte Ward: 24:07

I think Zenny, what you said though is interesting about this kind of increasingly blurred line between success and support. Um, and I think that what we're seeing in terms of this evolution is support leaders who are much more comfortable talking about the success sides of what they do, right? And and being part of a wider customer office, I think, is is is the way that a lot of us, particularly in larger organizations, and that doesn't have to be very large, it just has to be more than two people, right? Sometimes having a customer function, even if those individuals are doing multiple roles, it it's it's about being part of a customer function rather than running a team that happens to answer chat or take phone calls or whatever it is. I think it I think it's becoming a much more holistic experience from a support leadership point of view.

Zeni Bandy: 25:04

Yeah, and actually um going back to what Ethan was asking earlier about uh capacity planning and and how he was asking about the 120%. And um, Charlotte, you were talking about the 70, 80 percent. Um, I think it actually this is gives a reason why going for a lower utilization rate can be more beneficial because you give your team the space and time to think about uh the future instead of just reacting. You give them opportunities to be proactive and identify things that in with processes or systems that don't really seem to be meeting needs and give them the the mental space to actually talk about it and and share because otherwise people are so burnt out, it's really difficult to, or just not maybe if they're not burnt out, it's just very difficult to to really have a dynamic team that's constantly moving forward.

Charlotte Ward: 26:02

Absolutely, absolutely. So let's think about then. Um I think we are kind of starting to almost use the language in this call that this this is a time of change. It feels like a time of change to me based on my experience of the last few years and and the conversations maybe that I'm particularly privileged to have as part of this podcast with so many leaders. To me, it feels like we are in the middle of this evolution. So um I think that what I would like to perhaps talk about next is let let's consider that. Did do you all agree, first of all, that it is a time of change in support leadership? Um and therefore going forward, what what are the big factors at this moment we have to think about?

Ethan Walfish: 26:52

I think there's a big change in business right now. I think that's that's I mean it's kind of overarching everything. I don't think it's necessarily support specific, but I think that one of the biggest factors that we see, at least in in tech these days, is this push towards remote and towards remote friendly because so many of us are in some sort of remote situation now that previously hadn't been. And I think that's driving a whole bunch of change. Um and you know, I don't necessarily know sort of where where to take that, right? But I think that's one of the biggest things um that we're seeing is that push towards remote.

Josh Magsam: 27:29

I think with that, there's a big push for um security protection. Um you know, maybe maybe my lawnmower is gonna talk to me, but I darn sure want to make sure that I can make it forget who I am and everything that it knows at a moment's request, right? Um and you know, depending on what your team is dealing with, if if you've been used to working out of a uh you know an office space and you've got some controls in place for personal information, for example, that's all happening in in a living room or a bedroom now. Um and so how are you handling those sorts of things? Um how are you able to assure your customers that their their data is just as safe if it's now on a laptop that could be in someone's you know kitchen counter versus maybe an era in which they might have been more often locking it up at an office or something like that, even you know, um, or working out of a workstation in an office space. And those questions, at least in our line of business, have certainly risen to the forefront. Um you know programs that we work with want to know how are those things being handled, what happens, you know, to data points that might not have been out in the wild previously, but now have to live in the wild.

Ethan Walfish: 28:49

I think about like credit card numbers. That's a terrifying challenge to have to overcome. Yeah. Yeah.

Charlotte Ward: 28:58

On the plus and perhaps slightly amusing side in all of this is now that uh Josh, you've surely implanted in Matt's head the i the notion that there are not only lawn mowers who have all this information about him and wandering around, but but are now wandering around like in a zombie lawn uh zombie lawnmowers, like having having an existential crisis, forgetting what they do and who they belong to, but but they're just out there.

Matt Dale: 29:28

We're just more worried that it's gonna be like Skynet and they're gonna come after me. And I I can see like a thermostat, like I'm not super worried about a thermostat coming after me, but those lawnmowers, they just got a lot of blades and it just it just sounds scary. So that's where I'm at.

Ethan Walfish: 29:40

You know, lawnmowers and crocs really not safe.

Matt Dale: 29:43

They are not. Um give me my steel toad boots and we'll be good to go. The crocs are gonna have to go when the when the when the zombie lawnmower apocalypse happens um post-COVID, it's it's yeah, steel toad boots the whole way.

Zeni Bandy: 29:55

That actually speaks to a whole another thing that's happening is the mindset of our customers. And you're talking about security, um, and honestly, like the fears of the lawnmower attacking. I think these kind of things are becoming more real for people because they never imagined something like a pandemic happening. And so also just the mindset of our of customers during this time period is changing dramatically, um, along with what the business um is projecting and where it's going. Uh so yes, I think it was it it was already a time of change before COVID happened, but now it's just um it's it's just grown significantly. And it the companies that aren't moving quickly are are struggling.

Matt Dale: 30:40

Well, and I think you've got a good point there too, with the we have a lot of data about us that's out there. And I I didn't used to be as worried about it. Um and I'm you know, I I had a nest camera that I used for my my kids instead of having a nanny cam like downstairs, like I had a nest. I'm like, oh, this is super cool and techie. And it's like, oh, Google bought that. And I'm not necessarily sure I totally trust Google with what they're doing with information. And so this information that's out there about me from the last couple years that I assume got deleted, but who the heck knows? Like, there's a bunch of information about us that's not just as simple as, hey, they've got my phone number and my email address, which let's face it, that's all out there. But there's some really scary stuff with privacy that I think as support professionals, we need to be aware that this stuff exists, and we can't be playing fast and loose like a lot of uh companies did when they were startups. And we're seeing you know, stuff with Facebook and and and some of the challenges that that organization is having with the way that they're impacting the world in in ways they weren't even expecting, let's let's assume. Um, but but like there's a lot of really big implications to the big data that we have on all sorts of people now. And as as support professionals, like we need to make sure our teams are ready to treat that data carefully.

Craig Stoss: 32:40

And I and specifically from a support perspective, uh the one I've been a big fan of proactive support for years and and the idea that we could predict when a problem will happen based on previous use cases and um monitor you know what people are doing inside your SaaS platform, for example, so you can you can tell when when maybe your UX is bad because customers are going down a path you wouldn't have anticipated, or they're you're consistently hitting error messages there. And I I was explaining this to some people that aren't in uh in technology, like like the people in this panel, and and and they were actually a bit horrified. They're like, wait a second, so you're saying that you know you know every button I click, every page I visit, how long I'm on that page, what browser I'm using, what time it was at. You know, I'm sitting here thinking I'm providing a cool service from support of being able to say, oh, you clicked one, two, three, you probably want to click four now, and here's why. You know, that's a cool, helpful tip to to some end user. And they're sitting there going, like, well, wait a second, you know, why are you why are you need to know that I clicked one, two, three? You know, like I'm already a customer of your app, like just let me use the the thing that I want I'm paying you to use or whatever. Um that that's that's interesting because while that data probably is is not near as harmful, or or at least um uh something that can have as much impact as personal data, like where you you know, where you drive or or you know, who you phone or what web pages you visit, or all those things. Uh it's still personal data.

Ethan Walfish: 35:30

Yeah, and I I love photography. And as a as like a street photographer, right, one of the things you kind of talk about is what's the difference between someone who's being a creepy photographer and someone who's out doing street photography. And the way we frequently talk about it is intent, which is really hard. I think that's something that in support, right, we we have all the best intentions, but that's still kind of a a dangerous game to play with the level of information that we get.

Zeni Bandy: 37:00

And it makes you think when you talk about uh intent, Ethan, it makes me think about with with Facebook and how they started. It's just it's far-fetched to think that when Facebook was started, when it was college students, that they foresaw the impact they were going to have on US politics or politics around the world. And so it's like with the data that we have, uh kind of thinking about well, what are the possibilities of how this could be used in the future and is it irresponsible? And it's it's you can definitely go down that rabbit hole, and it maybe it's a fruitless exercise, but it I think it can be important in light of what's been happening of late in revolutions that we've been seeing, and how technology and data have really impacted and changed the world.

Charlotte Ward: 37:50

And it is a it's a slow and creeping tide as well, isn't it? As you said, though those college kids could not have foreseen the impact that they would have. What what are we now 16, like 15 years or something down the line? Don't know exactly, but but um that sort of slow creep of influence um and grip is is kind of something that you can't foresee at the start of a lot of this. So when we're talking about the evolution of support, it's something we're experiencing all the time, and probably therefore perhaps slightly negates the point of this panel, which is that we can't define it because it's happening right now, and in the same way that in that moment they couldn't have defined the evolution of that platform and where it would take them.

Zeni Bandy: 40:27

That's an interesting way to think about it as well, is that like, yeah, like it as much as we might people might be afraid of data, and it's something that I battle with too as a woman. I want Google to always know where I'm at. You know, it gives me a sense of security. Uh, you know, if something happens, people can find me or at least find my phone. And so there's that contrast of well, what actually is helping me? What am I willing to give up to for peace of mind or um convenience?

Charlotte Ward: 41:00

Yeah, or health in this case.

Zeni Bandy: 41:03

Yeah.

Charlotte Ward: 41:04

Um, so so let's move on then to think about some of those uh individual relationships. I I guess we've talked about data a lot, maybe part of this discussion now is our individual relationships to data, but but specifically talking about um changing times and changing attitudes in support uh and changing needs. How do we individually manage our approach to those? How do we individually manage the the way we lead a team and the way we respond to these changing times? And and as a kind of secondary question to that, how how do we bring new leaders with us?

Craig Stoss: 41:45

I think one of the biggest trends that I've seen that's different from even one year ago is a a much, especially in North America, um, is is a much higher focus on mental health, um, stress, um, you know, and and um protection. So uh about a year, about two years ago, I wrote my first kind of um protection uh policy for um what was uh women and people of color on my team who were receiving abuse from our customers um specifically because they were women or people of color. And it was, you know, as a as a white male, it wasn't something that had really ever crossed my mind. And I think that you know, we've seen some lot of stuff happen in the past few months where where those topics are becoming much more top of mind. And so uh, you know, when you talk about it managing, I think one of the biggest things that that really needs to be considered as a manager and for new managers especially is to learn a lot about how to handle mental health situations, handle stress leave, um, you know, be considerate of diverse opinions, um, you know, watch uh for the terminology that that is um non-inclusive, that that is pervasive in in our society today. And and so that is one thing that I think is is absolutely a huge trend in our kind of current changing uh environment.

Zeni Bandy: 43:10

I agree with you a lot, Craig. It's it really comes down to staying educated about about these different issues that are coming up and don't assume that even as a a woman, a a woman of color, um, it's not safe for me to assume that I can understand other people's perspectives. So to not to be humble enough to know that you need to keep learning and that it's a it's a process that has to continue and that you have to make time for and have to be intentional about.

Josh Magsam: 43:45

I think you just struck on something there, which is being intentional, leading with intentionality. Um it's always one of those things that it seems like such a simple concept at first blush, but then you kind of realize like it takes work and it takes a lot of buy-in, and you do have to you do have to lead it, you have to reinforce it constantly. And and so when I think about evolving as a leader, you know, I mean I I left academia and started in in support and started as a rep and you know rose on up. And at every stage, I was either um learning from someone or starting to learn with others, or then teach others and guide and coach and mentor. Um and one of the things I've I've worked with is to sort of say, hey, you know, some things don't become muscle memory. You have to always be intentional and approach it and ask yourself and do that gut check, right? You know, the I don't care how many times I repeat it, I have to stop and think about it. And as you're learning along with people, which is another part of evolution of leadership for me, is it's not like, well, I've attained some level of knowledge, understanding, experience that means these things are are already baked into me and I no longer need to examine them and move forward, is to train the folks that that are becoming leaders under me, that I coach, mentor, guide, that I struggle with these things too, folks, and I'm gonna have to keep coming back to them and I'm gonna have to keep reinforcing them, and I need to keep hearing you and listening. And that that is the model of leadership that I think is evolving and gaining traction.

Ethan Walfish: 46:19

I thought that was great. I I love that Josh. Thank you for sharing that. This is really uh thoughtful to to think about intentionally.

Charlotte Ward: 46:30

And and interesting that you drew the comparison there between that continual journey and that continual effort and our experience as support people who frankly want to solve something and close that ticket and move on to the next one.

Matt Dale: 46:52

Just a final thing, real quick, Charlotte, on the the topic too, of how do you bring others, new leaders with us? Um, if I think back to my experiences as a much younger uh support leader, um, I think one of the challenges that I found in my life was that I kind of had this really tight grip on certain parts of my job that I felt made me who I am. You know, like I had our I had our Zendesk system and I was the guy that set it all up and I knew all the reporting and I'm you know and I'm I'm holding on to that because I felt my you know inexperience that that that was an important thing. If I if I let that go, or if I let someone else come along and help, then then it would diminish me in some way. And and as I've as I've gotten a little more experienced and a little older, um, I realized that those opportunities to delegate, those opportunities to to see someone that's interested in something like reporting, um and and and then show them, hey, here's here's here's some of the some of the tools that we've used, here's some of the stuff that I've built, here's some things to think about. Can you help me with this project? Can we work on this together? And let's build something that's 80% and then we'll then we'll polish it. And in doing that, I actually magnified my influence. I was able to get more done. Um, but I was also able to help that that person grow in in his career and and prepare him for his next role. And so it's not this zero-sum game where for for you know for me to win, you have to lose, or for you to win, then I have to lose. Like when we are as leaders are able to delegate, when we're able to see the folks around us and say, hey, here's something that seems like it's a good fit based on what I know about you. Would you be would you be interested in this? Let me let me help you do this. Um the whole team grows and wins, and we are we are much better as an organization at Illuminate now than than we were when I was the one that was trying to keep everything on on my plate and and be the guy with the answers. So uh I think that's something that's important for us as leaders to remember that the delegating, that that investing in people and and seeing who they are is really, really key to to their growth, but also to the growth of us and to our organization too.

Zeni Bandy: 48:49

I'm really glad you brought that up, Matt. Uh, I think that's a really common insecurity that leaders have in all uh areas of the business, of feeling that if they're not the ones doing it, that they that's their worth. And if they're not doing it, then they have less worth. Uh and I think it's just like a coming again with the approach of of having the coach mindset instead of the authority mindset. Uh like you you don't you don't see uh the great coaches, they're not there trying to shoot the the three-pointers on the in the on the court. They're the ones there that are giving advice, giving guidance, asking the right questions, and inspiring people.

Greg Skirving: 49:28

Yeah, it's definitely empowering when you do that. And then I mean to your point, Matt, you're the Zendesk, uh Zen desk expert. You climb that mountain, great, go climb another one.

Ethan Walfish: 49:42

I think there's something that one of the things I read the other day was about um, and I've been I've been looking at a lot of very technical roles, and and one of the things was um having technically competent managers. And I thought that was a um a really interesting point about having a manager that's able to do the job that that you're doing. And um and that's something that I think about now is something that really meant a lot to me when I was a younger support engineer, right? Is that is that having someone that was willing to jump in and answer things with me and and sort of help me show me how these things could be done better in many in many situations. And in that way, it was sort of like delegating some of these tasks to me, right? It was something that they could show me how to bring me along for some of that opportunity. And I think that um that's one way to really lead by example and and really to inspire others to do to do great work.

Charlotte Ward: 50:42

Yeah, absolutely. I I think that there are so many good pieces of advice in there. There were so many good snippets. I'm almost afraid to come to you all for my last point, which is that one piece of advice. Now, we've we've talked we've talked somewhat about our own personal perspectives and kind of how we how we approach this and how we you know like the the importance of constantly learning, the importance of being a coach and all of those things. And and and and indeed touched on how that relates to bringing on other new leaders in our own teams. Maybe maybe the angle to take here is to think about our listeners, potentially people who we don't know personally, who we don't have that long-standing relationship with of being their leader or or or mentor or whatever, and and uh but uh and so ha having a personal investment in in their own journey to uh to leveling up their leadership. Think about somebody you don't know, somebody out there who's listening. What's your one piece of advice for that person when it comes to leveling up their own leadership?

Zeni Bandy: 51:55

I would say hit the classics. Um, one person that comes to mind from me right now is John Maxwell. Uh he has this great book called the 21 uh gosh, the 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership. It's been out for quite a long time, but I think it's a must-read, and it really helps shift into more of a service uh leader mind mindset and don't always have to go to what's newest, what are the newest things? Sometimes some of the things that have been out for quite a while are uh really important to make sure that you you understand.

Ethan Walfish: 52:30

I think a cliche phrase that I've heard a few times is be the person you needed. And it's something that for me I try to think about when I'm working with people that are on my team or even when I'm you know talking to people that are, you know, people that are managers that are maybe above me. I think about trying to provide whatever it is that I think that were I in their position that they that they need, right? And whether or not that's coaching, whether not that's an E, or whether or not that's uh more compelling information to make a better decision, trying to really make sure that I'm providing whatever I can for that individual or even for that customer, right? Or maybe even to the to the rest of the business to provide the service that I can that I think is really needed at that time.

Craig Stoss: 53:12

I'm going to extend Ethan's advice and say provide what the customer needs too. Uh you know, I I think it sounds obvious, listen to your customers, but I feel now more than ever, where they have social media outlets where uh it's easy to broadcast, you know, disparaging remarks, you know, you have your your G2 crowd reviews, you know, it's easy to spread bad situations. Um and but it conversely, it's also easy to take advice. You know, social media is a cornucopia of feedback that you should be taking in and listening to and doing things with. So um my advice for the future is I truly believe the companies that succeed are the ones that provide the best customer experience because right now that's that's a huge part of the brand you're building. And so um start a voice of customer program, uh listen to your customers, actually take action on the feedback, and and and then to use Ethan's words, provide what they need, um, because that that's a path to success.

Matt Dale: 54:17

Um, I think, you know, trying to put myself in your shoes, I would I would think try to try to talk to your people and try to set them up for success. Kind of like what Ethan said, you know, be what they need, but also be really clear with what you're expecting from them and set them up in such a way that they have the tools that they need to um get the job done, that they understand what success looks like, that they understand you know what you're expecting of them, because the ambiguity for you know for someone who's starting their career in support or or maybe reporting to you as a support leader is like the worst thing ever. The more clarity you can provide, the more detail you can give them.

Greg Skirving: 55:41

Yeah, and I think uh uh uh for me, some good advice that I got a long time ago. Inspect what you expect. Um, you know, from I mean, we talked about you know our systems and processes that we have. Are they still working? Do we need to change them uh from our people? Um uh are they truly happy? Are they getting burned out? You know, how do we make them proactive from our customers? Are they getting what they uh what they want? So um, you know, not just taking things for granted, um, truly understanding and seeking to understand and like I say, inspect what you expect.

Charlotte Ward: 56:18

Thank you so much. Um I think that this has been an un unusually stuffed, chock full panel of uh almost sound bites of advice. I I think I could chop this up into one-minute segments and and every piece would have uh like a little golden droplet that people should take away and consider very carefully. Um I uh not that any of my panels have been any less stuffed full of wonderful advice and perspectives, but somehow this one just seems to have been extra full. Um which I think has has uh made me feel a bit spoiled. So um normally I can kind of sum up a couple of things that I think uh is is true of the whole panel discussion, but but that we we have touched on so many interesting things here. I think that um one thing that I'm gonna take away is that that this is a time of change, and I think that we we're seeing changes and influences in all sorts of ways, and and those are coming through because the business is changing, because technology is changing, because the world is changing. And I think that you know it's not necessarily a time of revolutionary change that's happening in a month or two, although it may be in one or two of those aspects there are bigger influences, but that support is under a constant evolution, and support leadership, I think, is under a constant evolution, and there are always new things to think about, always new ways to to consider working, always new things you you should inspect. Um and I think that the support that I stepped into two and a half decades ago is a lifetime away from the support ecosystem that I'm working in and I'm experiencing now. But I don't think I love it any less for that. Um I think I still I still uh find every day I, you know, all of my time on the front line and all of my time in leadership, it's still uh it's still every day is different in support. And I think that that is probably the story of the evolution. Thank you so much. That's it for today. Go to