154: Year in Review: Frustrations and Awkward Conversations

Charlotte Ward: 0:13

Hello, welcome to episode 154 of the Customer Support Leaders Podcast. I'm Charlotte Ward. This week I begin a year in review. In the opening week of my Bachelor's of Science degree, a long time ago, there was a little talk given to us by our head of faculty who called out a few interesting stats about my choice of degree and the salary expectations that I might expect upon graduation. Now this was a long time ago. The world was a somewhat different place, but I can give you the gist of it. In essence, it was the speech was something like this. It was essentially well done on choosing a technical degree course. Ten years from now, as a graduate, you can expect your earnings to be approximately double the average of those without a degree in this country, this country being the UK. As a female graduate, you can expect your earnings to be something closer to eight times that of the average for a non-graduate woman. Now, I might have those numbers not precisely right, but it was approximately that. And I looked around me. I was in a room full of men, boys really. But this was a male dominated course for sure. I was one of about six women in that group of 80 people. I'd spent the last seven years at a moderately progressive all-girls school, progressive by UK standards of the time, and this was a brave new world for me. I was that woman in a man's world. And that's really how, since that day, that I thought of myself. I got my head down at uni, it did well enough. I got a job working in the tech realm I loved. I was one of five women, I think, in a graduate intake of 35 or so onto the Oracle graduate programme that September in the mid-90s. I was young, educated, privileged, hard working and hard partying as befitted my time of life. Um and I saved money too, and I bought a house eight months after I graduated. I was making my way in this man's world. I was ambitious, driven, motivated, and frankly, probably a little oblivious. I had a little of that arrogance of youth about me and the confidence of an education, a reasonable amount of intelligence, and a huge amount of independence. And everything so far in my life had been in my reach and in my control. But then suddenly out in that man's world I found things hadn't been so easy. Sometimes I wasn't heard. I had to talk louder, be thicker skinned, be pushier, get comfortable with being uncomfortable just to make things happen. Most of the time it worked. I think my work was respected by and large. I found opportunities as a very young person in a large organization that weren't just put on a plate for me. Sometimes it definitely made me a little unpopular. In my youth I wasn't yet adept at expressing my discontent with certain situations. Uh the only seemed to land on my desk because I was a woman. And I guess just as a small side note, I'm still not very adept at this sometimes sometimes. My tact is definitely a work in progress. Looking back, I was passed over for promotions. Well deserved, although albeit quite minor pr promotions. Um in one review meeting, my manager told me that my attitude was a problem, because sometimes I rolled my eyes when he asked me to go and fetch stuff from the photocopier for him, which was a regular occurrence. For the record, I was aiming for some semi-mock exasperation, all the while feeling fully exasperated. I explained the semi-mock angle to him, and did say that sometimes he interrupted what was deep work, although that wasn't the term we used for it back then. Why couldn't he share his errands among his entire team? He said he only asked me because I was always on top of my work, and my desk was the closest to his office door. Actually it wasn't I helpfully pointed out that he passed two men sat at desks between his office door and me, one of whom was my team leader, too busy and important to run errands. Another side note is that actually my team leader was a lovely man, who was my ally on many occasions. The other man that my manager walked past was newer than I. In fact I was mentoring him, but he was presumably too busy learning to be interrupted. I scoffed back then and I didn't get my promotion and I left the room. But my boss didn't really ask me to pick up his printouts after that. Despite my age, my mentee had been hired on a a higher salary grade than me. The one that I'd just been passed over for promotion to. He had apparently a year of relevant experience. I did too, it just didn't count because I was in the company. This guy had other work on his resume. I challenged that too in an earlier conversation about my promotion prospects. Why was I mentoring folks on higher pay grades? What specifically merited this chap's grade in comparison to my own experience? The only difference the only thing that secured his level up was that he asked. I had asked, damn it, six months earlier on another review cycle. Several feels a bit late now types of promotions later, I left. I moved on to another company, passed as new, same old manure. It was a story I saw repeated, if not for myself, then for my female peers. Male colleagues given uplifts that I should have been able to match, being called out for being for being difficult, for which read woman with opinions, being told that I needed to be less confrontational, but more prepared to say what I think, less aggressive, but more outspoken. Do what you need to do, don't overextend, meet all the standards and expectations, and then not go above and beyond enough. Too much of a nine to fiver, be more flexible. But please get here earlier even if you were the last in the office at eleven PM. Don't get in a relationship at work, unless you're married, or unless it's with the boss. Be this, don't be that, do this, don't do that. It was so much mental energy. I didn't think about it at the time, but now with more mature eyes I see it. Now looking back, I'm aware of just how much of my experience has been accounted for by my gender. Back then all I was aware of was the constant round of career frustrations that I knew were, at least in part, m due to my womanhood and not of my making. What's ironic somewhat is that I'm not your stereotypical woman in my mental approach to the world. I have personality traits and intellectual traits that are traditionally more attributed to men. I don't know if this is an accident of birth or nurturing or my education or my career experiences, but I do know that generally it's been a bit of a problem in my world. A significant portion of men I've worked alongside just didn't know what to make of me. I was somehow other. Those who did get me, who were friends and allies, usually said, yeah, that was an injustice, or as one ex-colleague told me several years after my departure from one role, which had failed to live up to its promise, yes, they treated you appallingly. The thing is, I've been frustrated, but I'm wiser now. I'm thicker skinned, I see the world for what it is, and it irks me. I'll stand up for myself and roll with the punches. But why the heck should I have to? More than that, why does this still go on? When I was twenty three, I was braver than a lot of my peers to call out wrongs when I saw them. I haven't known many twenty three-year-olds who are willing to do that. I ally and support where I can now because the world just isn't moving fast enough. And now that's my frustration. Let's hear some podcast guests talk about their frustrations and awkward conversations earlier this year.

Hilary Dudek: 9:28

I just let them know, you know, this is coming as a surprise to you. I mean, what you just said, this is a surprise to you. Like I knew this was coming, you know. Take the time you need to process, we can process right now in this call. Or, because me personally, I like to take it, go away for a couple hours, and then come back and revisit it. So I offer them that option as well. You know, if you need to go process this and digest this and come back with your talking points, absolutely let's do that. I I've had conversations like that where it was sort of a surprise. It hit me. And then I got off the call and I hadn't asked like 1400 questions that I had just thought of because I was too taken by surprise at first. And that was the first time this was with at a previous company with a previous boss. And so he learned over time, okay, like I'm gonna, this is a 10-minute meeting, I'm gonna deliver what I need to say, I'm gonna go away, and then we'll reconvene in you know half a day or something. He kind of learned that over time, that pattern.

Charlotte Ward: 10:26

It's really important to proactively offer that, I think, that opportunity to follow up. I know as as someone who's been on the receiving end of some of those awkward conversations as well, not all managers do that, not all leaders do that. I think there's one thing I've learned is that if I am on the receiving end of those conversations and the leader doesn't offer that opportunity, is to just take the ball by the horns and ask for it. Don't assume that because you're experiencing all of this, you know, all of this shock, that that's the end of the story because you haven't been offered that in the meeting. It's kind of go away and and be at one with those feelings for a while, but then follow up and ask to discuss. Yeah.

Hilary Dudek: 11:07

And I didn't realize at first that I could take the bull by the horns. That was pretty painful. But I I figured it out. I wrote a strongly worded email. It was fun too. It was that it was the co-founder of the company that I reported to, and I wrote him a very strong email, and he was thankfully very kind. He's like, I see you have some feelings about this. Like, let's meet in a couple days. Okay.

Charlotte Ward: 11:30

So that's good though, right? That he he recognized it as a as a need and and actually gave you an extra couple of days after your email.

Ash Rhodes: 11:39

I handled it horribly. No question, I handled it horribly. I think I cried. I was mortified in every single way. And eventually this person and I reconnected and are and are communicating and everything. But I, because of my guilt, I like didn't talk to her again for quite a bit because I was so mortified. Yeah, like I definitely handled that wrong in every way because I was brand new. I was a little baby lead.

Meredith Molloy: 12:09

A conversation with one of your highest performers where expectations aren't aligned around what may be the next step in their career growth is an awkward conversation to be had. And quite possibly even more awkward because you know that that this person is a top key performer, they have such growth potential, and for a plethora of reasons, those growth expectations might not be in alignment.

Matt Dale: 12:43

The hardest part of the hardest things that we get to do is those awkward conversations, especially ones that relate to someone's employment. You have to take those seriously. And I think is you know, if you're a normal caring human being, you're you're not gonna feel good about wow, I had to I had to reprimand someone or I had to I had to correct their course, or holy cow, this is something that's gonna result in in someone's termination. And and I think that has an effect, right? Like you're gonna be kind of in a in a jumble. And again, it's that's nothing to say they're having a lot worse of a day than you are, but but being able to have a little bit of space and give yourself the the breathing room will then allow you to come back to your next task or your next interaction with someone and and and be fully present.

Lauren Eimers: 13:20

There are actually a few key things that I employ. One thing that I have learned is it's called essentially a warning signal. When you start out a conversation, you want to signal to the other party where you reference something that you wanted to talk about, and maybe you had referenced in the email where you set up the call. Um, you know, the inf the person that you are chatting with knows that there is an issue at hand that like to be discussed. And so you you reference that. You say, hey, last Thursday when I sent that email about something I'd like to chat with, I think we really need to dig into this today. And that will prepare the other party so you're not just kind of like dropping everything on them.

Charlotte Ward: 14:02

Yeah, isn't that interesting? Because how many times have you received an email from your boss at like 10 past five on a Friday afternoon that says, Can you just come and see me before you go home with no context whatever? And how deep does that dread go? That's it for today. Go to customer supportleaders.com forward slash one five four for the show notes, and I'll see you next time.