209: Fireside with Ash Rhodes

Charlotte Ward: 0:12

Hello and welcome to episode two hundred and nine of the Customer Support Leaders Podcast. I'm Charlotte Ward. Today, welcome Ash Rhodes for a fireside chat. I'd like to welcome back to the podcast today. Ash Rhodes, Ash, lovely to have you back for a fireside this week, right?

Ash Rhodes: 0:40

It is lovely to be back. It has been a hot minute since you and I got to talk.

Charlotte Ward: 0:45

It really has. It really has. Um uh months. It's been months since we had a recorded conversation for the benefit of our listeners on this podcast, but but we have been in touch. So I know you've you've been busy. I know you've been uh been doing some stuff and doing the thing and the thing that we're here to talk about today, right?

Ash Rhodes: 1:07

Indeed. Uh one has to stay busy when one is in the middle of a pandemic, otherwise one goes slightly mad. I mean, slightly madder. I mean, we're all mad here, right?

Charlotte Ward: 1:18

It's all it's all relative, yeah. Absolutely. Uh so yeah, in the middle of a pandemic, as we were just touching on an economic downturn as well. Um, and yeah, the the fireside that you brought to me today, um, slightly under duress. I think I think there were accusations that I might have bossed you into this a little bit, but I will I will take that kindly. I will take that kindly as a woman who knows her own mind.

Ash Rhodes: 1:48

Um, is that how we're framing it today? Okay, cool. I can I can roll with that.

Charlotte Ward: 1:53

I'll I'll entirely I reserve the right to frame it a different way tomorrow as well.

Ash Rhodes: 1:58

As is your prerogative. All good, all good.

Charlotte Ward: 2:01

It's my show. I can do what I like.

Ash Rhodes: 2:03

Exactly. So you I'll create my own show and frame things a new way every day, too.

Charlotte Ward: 2:11

So whatever works, whatever works. Um, and whatever gets you through these these difficult times, the pandemic.

Ash Rhodes: 2:20

That's right, that's exactly how they phrase it.

Charlotte Ward: 2:22

In these troubled times, in these troubled times, we will refer to bossiness as today. Indeed, yeah. So I I already know what we're talking about today, but do you want to tell our listeners?

Ash Rhodes: 2:44

Why not? So uh at the very beginning of the pandemic, like the brilliant individual that I am, uh, I uh left my previous place of employment and decided to be a uh consultant, which is just amazing. Uh and you know it went off okay for a little while. I was helping various companies and individuals uh go remote in a super healthy and and uh responsible way, uh helping people achieve their goals. But I discovered something very important about myself, which is that I really hate being a consultant. Um it's just awful. It's a very stressful, um, not super, it's it's not a very fulfilling role for me because I don't get to feel like there's a whole lot of ownership from beginning to end. There is no end because I just make a whole lot of recommendations and then they take care of it. So uh I have been looking for a new full-time role with a company for for a while now, several months. And as you mentioned, it's not just a pandemic, it's an economic slowdown worldwide. Uh and finding a place that's looking for a very tenured customer service leader who specializes in remote work. Um honestly, it's been a bit of a slog. Uh you put in hundreds of applications and cover letters that are completely customized to the uh business and situation. Um you get callbacks on a fraction of those, and you go through the hiring process and you get ghosted every single step of the way. Uh, and you get across the finish line. Uh, in my case, just last week. I'm very thrilled to announce that to my rabid fan base uh that that I'm gonna be starting in a a new gig here next week. Um, but but yeah, it's just it's insane. Uh the uh the process is exhausting and um there's a whole lot of belief that people are sitting at home collecting unemployment checks and so on. But I can can tell you that, like not to get too political about this, whether you're in the US or the UK or anywhere in the world, that the actual process of truly trying to get a a job is a full-time job itself. You are constantly um putting in applications, completing assignments, uh prepping for interviews, having those interviews, doing post work. It is it is a non-stop uh uh job and one that is filled with more anxiety than I've actually had at any other role. So I'm I'm kind of looking forward to the to beginning because it's it's going to be relaxing in comparison, I believe.

Charlotte Ward: 6:11

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, there there is a lot to unpack there. And I think one thing that struck me was that um we framed the very beginning of this conversation about how hard it was and is to search for a particular type of role, particularly when your requirements are quite specific in a pandemic, in an economic slowdown. But what I have always been aware of, certainly over the course of the last year, is that I trod a very, very similar path to you a year before, before the pandemic. And it was hard enough then, you know. And I I think we both had those same realizations about consulting in this space from a personal level. Like everything you just said, for me, it was it was, you know, I'm not afraid of hard work, but it was hard work of a type I don't like. It was hard work selling myself, yes, which I really treat. Yeah, and and then that was sort of followed by everything you said, you know, you'd make a bunch of recommendations and you wouldn't get to see any of that bear fruit. That was kind of demoralizing. Looking for the next client, looking for the next thing, the next, and and and frankly, in a space that is not very well defined, if you are if you are consulting, like in uh if you're consulting as a customer support leader, providing support to support teams and and organizations setting up support, which is really where I targeted at the time. Um, and I know you went more for for the remote angle or the remote angle in addition, but so slightly differently. But but nonetheless, it's not that well defined either.

Ash Rhodes: 7:55

And so you oh, especially sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, but oh no, it is it it was the wild west, especially a year ago, um, which is coming up on on a year now. Um it was nobody knew what anybody wanted, and and least of all themselves. And so they would uh come to me and there would be a whole lot of comparisons to other companies, and they would think that companies had done certain things which were not true. Some of them I worked at, and and you know, I I can assure you that that um this this company A is has done like when they were at your stage, here's what they did, and here's the ways in which they kept their employees engaged and uh happy with the company, so on and so forth. Um, oh well, what about making sure that they're doing their work and and so on? We really need to track that. Okay, well, here's how you can make sure that you um are collecting deliverables and so on. Well, but we'd really like to track them, track them. Like, okay, I know you're talking about like keystroke loggers and and video stills and so on. None of that is going to make anybody happy. Let's just take that off the table right now. Oh, but we heard that these companies do that. They don't like they don't. Um but yes, it it was just uh a good friend of mine described it as being hired to make a cake. And about five steps into it, the uh owners come along and say, Oh, but we wanted the cake to be made out of meat. Okay, well, that's that's a choice, and I suppose I can do it, but meat's way more expensive than flour. So I can do that, but one, it's gonna be more expensive, and two, nobody wants a meat cake. So, really, are you sure that's what you want? Yes, we're really sure. Okay, well, all right, here's your meat cake. This is disgusting. Who who told you to do that? Meat cakes are gross. We never would have asked for that.

Charlotte Ward: 10:17

So this conversation has taken a decidedly unexpected turn.

Ash Rhodes: 10:22

I apologize.

Charlotte Ward: 10:23

I did not expect so quickly to be talking about meat cakes in my life, but there we go.

Ash Rhodes: 10:30

I mean, literally, meat pies are a thing where you come from, and they're pretty much just as gross.

Charlotte Ward: 10:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They are meat pie sandwiches, even are a thing in some parts of this country where you put you take the meat pie and you put it between two pieces of bread. Let's not go there though. I think we need to get this conversation.

Ash Rhodes: 10:47

What's wrong with you?

Charlotte Ward: 10:48

Not me, not some parts of this.

Ash Rhodes: 10:50

What is wrong with your people?

Charlotte Ward: 10:53

Okay, I'm gonna stop right there and bring this conversation back to where it needs to be, which is on track before. No, I'm leaving this bit in. I'm leaving this in. Oh, fair deuce.

Ash Rhodes: 11:08

Yeah, okay.

Charlotte Ward: 11:08

You, I mean, you started with the meat cake. So to bring me.

Ash Rhodes: 11:15

It's this random other dude.

Charlotte Ward: 11:17

Let's bring this conversation back on track, which is we I think we I think we can both say consulting is horrible. Consulting in a nee in a niche new space is horrible.

Ash Rhodes: 11:29

Um everyone who's thinking about doing it, run. Like the the world needs consultants. I don't want to, I don't want to say otherwise, but if you are not someone who has spent a lot of time in sales and are super, super comfortable with it, you are you are gonna have a bad time.

Charlotte Ward: 11:48

I I think either that or that you have like a very, very industry standard skill that you can sell. Like you you are a Salesforce admin or a Zen desk consultant or something that is really, really a specific skill that other people who don't have your skills recognize. Um otherwise, I think it's just really hard work, and you definitely need to be a certain personality type that I I fully appreciate that neither you or I are.

Ash Rhodes: 12:19

Or I I have I have been thinking that someone somewhere out there needs to form some sort of collective to uh pitch all of these individual consultants. Like they need to be the consultant whisperer who's like, you know what, you know which exact uh leadership consultant you need? You need Charlotte. She's she's perfect for this. She has all of these exact requirements and and is basically the clearinghouse type of person for that.

Charlotte Ward: 12:54

That's that's what needs to be I would pay that agency good money, or I would have when I was consulting for sure.

Ash Rhodes: 13:01

Yes.

Charlotte Ward: 13:02

Although I can't help but think that those type of gigs are rare enough that I'd probably just end up employed by that client anyway, right? Um, which I think is effectively what happened once once I decided I was taking myself off the consultancy market and actually job hunting. When the work, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um for a number of reasons. No, that's fine. For a number of reasons, but not least those things we mentioned before about just wanting to see the the work through and bear the fruit of that and feel a place in an organization where you can have some influence, shape something exciting, and all of those things, right? And you know, yeah, not have to sell your soul every every other Monday, right?

Ash Rhodes: 13:45

And and that also is part of it, like it's a never-ending long-term interview. Like you're you're constantly interviewing for for the next gig.

Charlotte Ward: 13:53

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. So um, we spent a long time talking about how much we hate consulting, but let's talk about how much we hate interviewing too.

Ash Rhodes: 14:06

Yeah, a new role.

Charlotte Ward: 14:08

Yeah, let's talk about that then.

Ash Rhodes: 14:10

It's interesting. So there has been a move, and I I don't know if it is just uh worldwide and and all industries wide, but it is definitely something that I've noticed in uh all customer service and especially in um leadership, wherein um so so let me let me preface this by saying that my wife is a recruiter and HR and so on, and she has um been responsible for hiring C-suite executives and so on, where she's like done talent searches nationwide, US nationwide, and flown people in to find the the right C-level exec. The number of steps that I've had to take in order to be a director level are far and away more than what some of these companies that she's worked for have done for people who make literally five times as much with a better um title. So people are going to, and due diligence is a thing. And I'm I'm a big believer in due diligence, making sure it's the right person for the right role. But at what point um why do you need to have me talk to literally 20 people in an organization and do two, three projects, all of it unpaid? Like why? Like that that is one of them. Uh that that is not an exaggeration. Um, and I was practically ghosted. Like I I was all the way to the end, and I didn't hear from the company for two months afterwards before they finally let me know that I didn't get the role. And I'm like, at that point, I I yeah, I figured that out. Um and and I don't want to sound just like I'm complaining, it's just one of those why? Why have we as an organization or as a a um group decided that that's the direction that we need to go?

Charlotte Ward: 16:26

I and and you know, I would like to say that's unusual, but I've experienced an almost identical hiring process uh down to the wire a few a couple of years ago, you know, before where I am now. Um I think I counted, not not including the whole company presentation that I had to give.

Ash Rhodes: 16:48

Oh my god, no pressure or anything.

Charlotte Ward: 16:51

In a foreign country. They brought you to a foreign country, they took me to the queue and I gave an all-company presentation there. Not including that, I had nine interviews, including a like a panel with the team. And I think I counted 21 people that I met over the beat me.

Ash Rhodes: 17:14

Congratulations.

Charlotte Ward: 17:15

Yeah, uh I when you said 20, I thought I think I'm fairly sure it was 21, but it was certainly in that ballpark. And I hit I I spent 20-ish, 25 hours something in that ballpark on a case study, um, not including the whole company presentation that I had to do. Uh, and you know, and the whole I I mean, I I could literally, I was hauled over the colds, right? And I think I think that I I think that the point I'm making here because I could fill a fireside with that story by myself and I'll try not to, but but one of these days we'll flip it and I will interview you about it. Yeah, yeah, I'll tell you all about it. Um, because it was horrific. But and it was an absolutely an exercise in how not to treat candidates at every, well, almost every step. But the point I'm making is it's not unusual. It's happened to you and it's happened to me. 100% of the people on this podcast tonight have experienced shitty hiring processes, and I can bet if I looked across most of my guests over the last year and a half of this podcast, it'd be close to 100%, wouldn't it?

Ash Rhodes: 18:27

So two things to that, I guess. Um a statement, it has really made me very aware of okay, if they're treating me this way now, how will they treat me later? And there if like the the company that I'm at when they had me do the project, they paid me for it. That was that was one of the reasons why I was like, yes, absolutely, I will come work for you. But two, it is really kind of um created in the back of my mind a list of things that I will never do to employees, to to potential employees. I will never ghost another uh even by accident. I will over-communicate if necessary. So I guess my question back to you is has it changed anything for you, like as you are hiring.

Charlotte Ward: 19:30

Um I think it has, yeah. I I try and give properly proper feedback on case studies. My because I'm hiring, you know, frontline, my case studies aren't 25 hours. These are, you know, a couple of hours work for a test, maybe. Um, which I think, you know, is as long as you would spend on a well thought through application anyway. So I think much longer, and I would like to do something. much more like a a uh probationary period or something but but I think I think it kind of it kind of works and I give anyone who takes that test personalized feedback on the test. Beautiful.

Ash Rhodes: 20:14

Lovely.

Charlotte Ward: 20:15

And uh yeah just I just really high levels of communication generally and don't keep people hanging around between stages you know it's okay it's okay to have different people at different stages in your hiring process. I accept that that is a reality. And uh I can neither as a hiring manager I can neither hold up my hiring process to get multiple people to the same stage because all of those candidates are going to have applied at different times and I will therefore be keeping people waiting.

Ash Rhodes: 20:45

But also um you know just being as transparent as I can be by you know you know well not only transparent but just um oh what's the word uh not cognizant but um just yeah just aware respectful rest respectful of their time and and their anxiety like every you you submit a application and you it's it starts a countdown of oh geez if I haven't heard by X number of days I didn't get it or or whatever and like whether they someone is applying for a job just and they currently have a job or they are unemployed doesn't really make a difference. And like makes a difference to them if you are going to respond like with a a a message.

Charlotte Ward: 21:50

Yeah it's a it's definitely yeah it's definitely about respect. And actually I think this this the next thing I'm gonna say sounds perhaps a little uh um a little vague but um as a hiring manager also I like to it's not a conscious decision but if I'm excited about someone as a candidate I will show them that I won't be so rigid uh rigidly in the process that I won't say you know I'm I I think I think it'd be great if you could make this and do that and like and and actively be active in pushing that process forward instead of like just passively relying on the internal hiring processes.

Ash Rhodes: 22:31

I think that's great. We ask the applicant to show that they're super excited to work at the company but then we don't return that in any way and show that we're excited to have them come work at the company why not have it be like a a bi-directional thing yeah for sure um you know and it's just about uh I mean that goes kind of hand in hand with being highly communicative and not ghosting people and not doing all of those things but but if absolutely if you're excited to have someone on your team why wouldn't you kind of want them in the door and working for you as soon as possible and you know I um I I try you know for for as long as that hiring process is working out um I will you know keep keep keep keep engaged with it right um there's no point at which I just let it rest while we may you know well yeah you got to iterate and so on. And and further to the to a point you just made if if you're hiring you have a need to hire so why have it take longer than necessary like you should be trying to get people in the door as long as it's a good hire like take take the amount of time that it needs to take but don't have it take any longer than is necessary either. Yeah is my thought. Yeah so so yeah I I'm I'm thrilled to hear that you also are just like yes all of these terrible experiences have informed the the choices that I'm making going forward. I'm glad to hear that we both are are human beings that can learn from our mistakes so or not even our mistakes but just the things that have been done from us to us. Yeah yeah the mistakes inflicted upon us yeah that those words I can word good words so yeah it's been it's been a hugely interesting experience um and so on uh message boards or sites like Reddit um there's you know a subreddit called data is beautiful and clearly people who are way more into data than even I am um have kept track of you know the number of applications they've put in and so on so they'll have just like that you know number of applications number of responses um number of ghosts number of first applications or first uh interviews second third fourth and then um offers and they've made these really beautiful charts that and flow charts and so on and I wish that I'd kept track all the way from the beginning because I would have loved to have made something like that. And at some point I did start keeping track um but since it's not a complete data set I feel like it's cheating to to make anything um but it's it's shocking just how um how many applications you put in and how little results come from it.

Charlotte Ward: 25:30

So and it it's thoroughly demoralizing you really as you said at the top it's a full-time job you really have to keep at it and you know I used to think when I was applying for roles decades in the plural ago um I was surprised if it took me 10 applications to get a role yeah you know and I remember those days. Do you remember like you'd print off your your cover letter attach it to your CV or resume stick it in a a a mailbox somewhere and eventually hear back but or maybe maybe I'm maybe maybe that predates even you but no that was that I mean that wasn't quite for the tech type roles but um yeah it was for me I I remember going in and and hand filling it out for for in-person roles and and stuff like that.

Ash Rhodes: 26:25

Like um GoDaddy and and so on. Actually I don't remember how I applied for that but I'm pretty sure it was fill was filling it out online. And hearing back in a day or two going in for an in-person interview and having the job at the end of the the interview. Yeah that was it done I for sure applied for my first technical support role on paper and and stuck it in the post uh that was 19 well here we go 1996 I applied to Oracle I type like at Oracle my first role was at Oracle and it was it was a paper application and uh yeah yeah I stuck it in a post put a stamp on the envelope stuck it in the post I think GoDaddy was 2006 five oh shut up so young um anyway well where I got my master's before that so I was I was busy trying to become a teacher so we all make poor life choices there.

Charlotte Ward: 27:36

Yeah yeah well yeah um but but I think I think like just to go back to that point you know in those days applications were 10 maybe 20 and now it's it's hundreds isn't it and I think it's fair to say anyone out there might expect that I I don't think it's a given I think you can get hired in 10 but I think that if you're still sending out applications at 289 and that's kind of okay too it's just the way things are.

Ash Rhodes: 28:11

Well you're you're absolutely right and I so there have been several things where I've just been kind of a downer about but but a couple of points one is that it is something that that my partner has really done a great job of reminding me about is that the fact that I got to the end over and over again meant that it usually did come down to me or one other person. It meant that I was very qualified for it but that somebody else just was their unicorn and it also meant that there were so so so many other people applying for the same jobs. I happened to find out through the application process that some for some of these roles they were getting 4,000 uh applications. And um that sounds a little braggy but what I'm trying to get across and what I hope other people who might be listening understand is that if you are struggling to this is happening to you. And if you get an app get a to the interview process that means that you have already beaten out probably like 90% of those other people which means you've beaten out if it's a 4000 like 3600 other people just to get to the interview process if you get all the way to be second best that means you have beaten out 3998 other people and does it suck that there's still one other person that beat you yeah man it fucking sucks I am super aware had it happen over and over again but eventually you're gonna be the person that beats out somebody else and they're going to need to go and have like a binge drinking night to get over that fact. But it'll be your turn eventually um practice like practice interviewing work on your resume like do customize it if you need help there are services out there for like shockingly cheap these days that will help you with it.

Charlotte Ward: 30:36

Some of them are free um talk to your friends if you're not in support driven join it and people will help reach out to anyone on this podcast or in support driven or anyone else in any of those other communities um people will help we all want everyone to succeed because we've all been there right yeah um and the the fine and the thing that the so I was gonna say the the the the thing also that you talked about about practice which I think is super important is every application is a practice session as well. Yeah if you are if if you're getting a quarter of the way through do enough of those you'll get halfway through do enough of those you will get three quarters and eventually you'll get to the one that which will be the most valuable valuable because it'll be the one you really want and it will be the one that you interviewed best for because you've had all that practice and I think I think just not writing off yeah it's all about workshopping what your responses to questions and so on and so forth.

Ash Rhodes: 31:44

There have been times where I've gotten a question I'm like I have no idea how to answer this and I have flubbed it. But then I was ready for it wasn't the next time or the time after but I got the same question and I was like I know how to answer this this time I am 41 years old and I have given hundreds and hundreds of interviews as the interviewer but when I was the interviewee it's a completely different set of skills and I was just like a deer in the headlights sometimes yeah it's okay like these are not skills that people are born with so yeah um and then the final thing that I wanted to say was um through this whole process I randomly ended up with three friends two two other friends it was the three of us who were looking at the same time and we were just I've never met either of them in person and we just messaged each other encouragement and like hey you've got this one and then if we didn't get it like oh you're still gonna get it um find your tribe find people who will encourage you and dude that helps so much to just have other people who have your back and just will will send you that encouragement and uh I just have to send a shout out to Jason and Sasha who are always there to to encourage me through my process.

Charlotte Ward: 33:29

So that's all that's it for today go to customersupportleaders dot com forward slash two zero nine for the show notes and I'll see you next time