230: Fireside with Simone Secci

Charlotte Ward: 0:13

Hello and welcome to episode 230 of the Customer Support Leaders Podcast. I'm Charlotte Ward. Today, welcome Simone Secchi for a fireside chat. I'd like to welcome back to the podcast after quite some time. My very good friend Simone Secchi. Simone, lovely to have you back. It's been an age and we're nearly well, it's only two weeks till Christmas, right? 2021. What happened to 2021? Do you know?

Simone Secci: 0:53

It was a bit of a blur.

Charlotte Ward: 0:55

It was, wasn't it? So time did a strange different thing in 2021 to what it did in 2020. But still time, I'm I I don't trust it anymore. It's weird. Um, anyway, it's lovely to have you back. Um, you are joining me after a little break to talk about something that is a topic close to my heart. And it's kind of a we're gonna chat for the next 15 minutes or so about building careers in support, right? And very specifically, you came to me with this idea. Do you want to tell us what we're talking about today?

Simone Secci: 1:30

Yeah, so first of all, it's good to be back. Uh always a pleasure talking to you, Sharon. Um, but also, yeah, I think in speaking of 2021, this is um the first year that I actually found myself in the position of uh helping people transition um from a support agent uh role into a leadership role. And um I spoke about this um this transition before, but from uh my own perspective, from the perspective of my own career. And in 2021 specifically, I actually had the experience of helping someone else make this transition, which is brought me to think about this transition in a completely different way and sort of like see how different my challenges in making this transition were uh from the the ones of the people that I was helping the people in my team. And um and it was interesting to read their reflection and read their point of view and helping them through this uh this challenge.

Charlotte Ward: 2:43

Yeah, yeah. Um I I remember our conversation last year. I still can't believe that. Um, and and actually that week that I did on the podcast, where I had five short conversations with different people about their journeys into leadership. What struck me about that week was how different everyone's stories were and how organic they all were, actually, and how we all came from different places. I did a really traditional route into first, like really from school through university into technology and then into leadership. It could not have been more conventional, frankly. But that week everybody had come from different places and had arrived at leadership and support in different put in different ways. Um, so it's interesting to think about it now in the position you're in, how you help someone intentionally make that transition. And and I guess be kind of are you help is this a less organic journey than the ones we were talking about on the podcast last year?

Simone Secci: 3:44

Um I guess the reason why uh for me, uh, you know, like I helped these people uh make this transition and and I promoted these people into this role was the same reason why I was promoted into a leadership role. Essentially, uh at the time, um, somebody that was my boss um couldn't do all the work himself and needed to delegate some of the tasks. And I found myself in that same position. And I was lucky enough to have people around me that I trusted and I thought they were ready to make that transition, and I just made it happen. Um and I think that comes from the fact that you know, from my experience leading support teams, there were four areas where you know the work developed, which were you know, uh support ops, analytics, QA, and um training and onboarding people. Essentially. Um and I couldn't do everything myself.

Charlotte Ward: 4:49

Yeah.

Simone Secci: 4:49

And and especially I couldn't um, you know, have my brain occupied with all four areas at the same time, right? So not just like helping or advising in in that uh uh or reviewing work, but actually planning everything. And so um uh I had to to trust somebody else to do it, um, which was a very good choice in in my case. It went very well and I'm very happy with the people that I promoted in those roles. Um but I also had to, you know, put myself in their shoes and and um help them with challenging essentially from the position where you are working essentially in the queue all day and and you're very good at what you do and you're helping people and you're achieving a lot of results in that sense to do something uh different uh that you also are good at, but you don't know yet. Um you know you don't feel fully uh that you don't fully trust that you can. Um so help them believe in that first of all, and then also leaving that safety net of the that thing that you actually are good at right now, which is solving tickets.

Charlotte Ward: 6:12

I um so I have a couple of questions for you. One is you you named four areas there, four specialisms, I guess, for four functions in a way. Um Did you have the luxury of having a large enough team that you were able to effectively enable these transitions in a single step? Was this a restructure? Um and then the other question I have, which is kind of a follow-up to that, is that the people that you put into those roles, um were they were they willing? Like how did how did you identify them? Because I think that's quite a common um conflict, isn't it? It's your best support agents, your best support engineers, the best at doing that job isn't necessarily the best at another function or or even the one with the most potential for another function or a step up into leadership. So I guess the first part of those is just that simple question. Was this part of a restructure? Was it a conscious like restructure extra layer in there?

Simone Secci: 7:14

Yeah, I mean, I would say that's very true. Like the agents are not uh, you know, a very good agent might uh want to progress in in uh in still an individual contributor role, just maybe at a higher level of support, like going from tier two to tier three, you know, or something of that sort, or becoming a support engineer, becoming more technical, right? And that that's that's uh development, right? But we're talking more about people that that are willing and they're interested in actually managing a small team themselves. Um and they they have those uh also human skills, those those soft skills to do that. Like they know how to talk to people, they they know how to motivate people, they know how to train other people. And I would say, you know, this developed uh both organically for me throughout my career doodle and also in terms of resources, meaning the bigger the team got, the more resources we had, um the more I was able to, let's say, find a co-location for those areas um for things, you know, for this manager role. So I couldn't have one QA, one uh support ops, one analytics expert, one you know, a training and onboarding person. Like I didn't have enough people for that. But I could delegate um those some some work in those areas to this two emerging leaders. Right. And that's exactly what I did because as we know, like the reality is not as clean cut as we as ideally we would want to do it.

Charlotte Ward: 9:00

Unfortunately, it's not, is it? Unfortunately, I I I would love to draw an org chart and just have somebody slot straight into every gap on that org chart with with the right skills and interests and uh and um you know desire, frankly. But but uh it doesn't happen, does it? You have to you have to, in some ways it's gonna sound terrible because it sounds throwaway, but you have to make do with what you've got. And because the that's the truth of it, the truth of it, you can't hire into all of those needs. Um but also in in making do with what you've got, you're providing really strong growth paths for those people too.

Simone Secci: 9:38

Right, right. And I I believe in following an agile, like um from following agile methodologies. And I believe that people, especially in the support team, should know a bit of everything. Because you don't want to have bottlenecks, you know, um, especially in support. It's an area where like um a lot of people in the company are relying on you to be able to be there. Uh, somebody needs to support the users at all times in a lot of companies. Like we only provide support in during business hours, for example, but a lot of companies don't. They need uh we can support, um, you know, and but we do provide support in in almost all time zones in the world. So we spread out all over the world. That's another aspect, another layer of complexity that's on um to uh to this specific transition to leadership in this case that I'm describing. Like um, so we're talking about somebody that is good at working remotely himself, but can that person manage people on different time zones? So that's something that was a struggle for me in the beginning, that there was you know uh something that I had to learn a lot from other people about, that I had to study a lot, uh how to that I had to how to do, that I had to experiment a lot with, and that basically I just passed all my learnings and and all the mistakes that I did, or the learnings I got from those mistakes to these people, um, to help them through through this transition, right? Um it has a lot to do with really like good asynchronous communication, which is the bread and butter of most companies today that live with this reality, you know. Um so it has a lot to do with communication, essentially.

Charlotte Ward: 11:32

Yeah, um and and I think actually that allows you to um I I think it's a different take, isn't it? I mean I I think when uh I uh have looked at teams in the past and thought about potential team leads, for instance. I think that uh I've often thought about how good would those people be uh leading people? Can they actually line manage? But what I've what I've come to realize over the years is that's just an overly simplistic view of what being a team lead is, you know. And and actually that's probably not the right question to ask anyone in your team who you think might have the potential to be a lead, right? I I think that um saying, do you want to manage people is the wrong question to establish that desire and and in fact establish the skills. You're you're absolutely right. It's vastly more about communication. Can they talk to people? Can they inspire people? Can they guide and coach people rather than line manage people?

Simone Secci: 12:40

Right. So there's two, I guess, two elements that that come up organically, which are are these people, do these people have a natural propension to talk to um outside stakeholders, for example? Or they're very shy about it or insecure about it, and or uh do they have a natural propension to help people out, the new people that are starting out to um advise them or reaching out to them and be like, hey, um if you're struggling with this, like uh I can help you out or um offer help or respond to questions that people ask maybe in a Slack channel or anything like that. Uh, do they naturally do that? And then sort of like just like catching on onto this these details and understand, like, you know, um, but not make the equation like, oh, these people are very good to talk to customers, and they they also are good at talking to to their team members or other people in the company, like that that equation, I don't think is correct.

Charlotte Ward: 13:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's reflected as well, isn't it? It's like are they the people that people go to?

Simone Secci: 13:52

Right.

Charlotte Ward: 13:53

You know, um, because uh if other people in your organization respect them and uh value their opinions and guidance, then that's it, and obviously like, and and and and aren't rebuffed in that in seeking that help, like actually get that engagement that they need and get that help that they want. That's a that's a big indicator that that person is is is probably a good candidate, right?

Simone Secci: 14:20

Right, and and I would say that there are people that are important individual contributors that you want to enhance the visibility of in front of the whole company, and that's your job, that's your job as a leader, and then there are people who make themselves visible through their contribution, and those are sort of like leaders by by acting in a way, and you you and personally I caught on to that and I just made that happen.

Charlotte Ward: 14:54

Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. I completely agree. Um what is your um when when you think about those things? I mean, you said before that there were effectively kind of four areas that you wanted to do some delegation in and that you had two individuals that you'd got into that mix. Do you see that subdividing further as you grow?

Simone Secci: 15:20

I think it's a necessity as you grow, because I feel like that's sort of like um become like a tree structure in a way. Like um as the team grows, and you know, uh the person that you delegated originally on takes on more direct reports, and then with with that uh amount of work, then also the the possibilities of finding other people that they themselves trust to do part of the work then grows, and then they might want to delegate some of the tasks that they have. Um and then that I think uh that possibility opens up. You know, it becomes more of a matter of like the growth of the organization itself. Uh I don't remember who who told me this, uh, but uh I thought it was pretty appropriate that um uh a support team should be at least 10% of an entire organization. And I kind of found that, you know, be a realistic expectation, like to not to never be less than that. Uh I think that I don't know why, but they kind of make sense for me as a I think particularly yeah, I think so.

Charlotte Ward: 16:35

And I think particularly for more technically challenging roles, I think that's fair. I think you need yeah, I think you you have to not only are the demands of your customer base greater and more challenging and less repeatable, um but but but also um you need to have greater influence inside the organization, you need to carry that voice through in a stronger way.

Simone Secci: 17:04

Yeah, absolutely. And then you want people that are also good to carry their voice in into like in in in the company, right? And and also when you're when you when you're not there.

Charlotte Ward: 17:18

Yes.

Simone Secci: 17:19

Um, you know.

Charlotte Ward: 17:20

Your day off is nice, isn't it?

Simone Secci: 17:23

Yeah, that you know, and and and and the ability to to trust that they can make their point of gross.

Charlotte Ward: 17:33

Yeah, absolutely. Um one thing that I have done, and I'm interested in your take on this. Um I've done this a few times now, and I've I've been doing it in my current place, um, is when I put in that first team lead layer. Um so the first layer between me and the front line, um, I have tended to make those team leads fractional team leads. So you know, 50% of their time is is in that team lead role, and then the the other half is is uh agent or engineer work. Um and for me I found that works particularly in smaller teams where you don't and particularly in distributed teams where where you don't have the luxury of, as we said, like there are so many factors, so many, you could build eight boxes easily and say, I need a geographic team lead with and at the weekends, and you know, this skill set. And and before you and and across these two different work streams my team are doing in every geography, and before you know it, you need eight team leads, and they've each got one person reporting to them, it doesn't make any sense at all. But um, so this kind of idea of somebody who does a has a foot in both camps for a while, particularly in early stages, is something I've found to be quite successful. Um and you know, I think then you can maintain it for much longer actually as well, and you can grow more fractional team leads that uh will uh be able to practice those leadership skills and grow those leadership skills without it being too crucial, if that makes sense. It becomes a bit more of a training ground, a bit more a bit more of an opportunity to make mistakes because it's not everything they do. And then it's not it's not a huge wrench if they want to step away from the team lead side of things, which can happen, but also it's an easier step up as you grow when you do need those full-time team leads in place. Is that something you practice or have practiced? Or um, you know, like do you have a really strong opinion why that's not a good idea? I'm most interested.

Simone Secci: 19:54

No, I think it's that's a really great idea, especially with the smaller teams. Um For me, it came a point to a point where I was like, okay, I want you to, and I told the it came to a point when I told the lead in question, um, I want you to just be the person that people come to uh when they don't know what to do on a ticket, and not be that person that takes over that ticket yourself anymore. That was the crucial moment for me where they went from being that like um, you know, from that 50-50 model where they were doing 50% like tasks and 50% tickets to just full leadership. Like that transition that was like the most difficult moment. That was like, okay, you don't have your security blanket anymore. You're you're going to just do this. Uh people can come to you to ask you, what am I gonna do here? I don't know what to say. And you can still tell them, you can still advise them, you can still literally uh you know give them the entire snippet, you know, like just you know, say this, write it for them if you if you think are so inclined. Uh you think that that's necessary, you know, but you're not taking over that ticket. Like that that's a big difference, that's a big jump for people. People feel like, okay, um, I I you know now uh this is my new career. Yeah. Sort of. Yeah. That's that's when they in my experience, that's when they freak out.

Charlotte Ward: 21:33

I can well imagine. Yeah, yeah, I can well imagine. Yeah, yeah.

Simone Secci: 21:37

Yeah. Yeah, that's where the moment where I'm not sure if I can do this comes up. Like it came up for me at the time. And and that's that's a good sign. That's a sign of a smart person that that you know is um is asking them himself the or self the the right question. And and that's you know, that's where you have to step in and help people um yeah like address their concerns, guide them through actionable uh feedback, guide them through uh, you know, resources, courses that they can do and leadership, like about for example, like how to handle difficult conversations uh about uh performance and things like that. Um yeah, and that's um I think you know that's their way seems to be the correct way to approach it.

Charlotte Ward: 22:41

Yeah, yeah, I I I think so. And I think you're right, the person who is struggling to like is asking themselves seriously about the challenges they're facing in letting go, doing the work. Those are the people who are will approach it much more thoughtfully than than those who are willing to just let go and say, you know what, yeah, great, don't have to do that anymore. But I think I think people who approach it thoughtfully are the right ones. Yeah, absolutely. Um I want you to come back and talk about ticket ownership with me at some point, because what you just said there is is absolutely spot on. Like um you can't always step in and and look after someone else's ticket. And uh, you know, and I think there are there's a lot around ticket ownership and owning the solution and so on that I'd love to discuss with you another time. Will you come back and do that for me?

Simone Secci: 23:39

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, cool.

Charlotte Ward: 23:41

Well, thank you so much for joining me. It's been great. I will uh welcome you back very soon.

Simone Secci: 23:46

Oh, it's a pleasure.

Charlotte Ward: 23:48

Thanks so much, Timoney. That's it for today. Go to customersupportleaders.com forward slash two three zero for the show notes, and I'll see you next time.