236: Fireside with Sam Semuhin

Charlotte Ward: 0:12

Hello and welcome to episode two hundred and thirty-six of the Customer Support Leaders Podcast. I'm Charlotte Ward. Today, please welcome Sam Samuhin for a fireside chat. I'd like to welcome to the podcast for the first time today, Sam Samuhin. Sam, it's lovely to have you join me. We've had a little chat a couple of days ago to say hello to each other. So I've got to know you a little bit, but welcome. And would you like to introduce yourself for the benefit of our listeners?

Sam Semuhin: 0:50

Sure. Thank you so much, Charlotte, for having me over. I'm really thrilled. Um, I'm Sam. I'm the customer care manager at Uplo, which is um fintech startup company. We're revolution revolutionizing how B2B companies get paid. And uh joined a little over maybe like seven months ago now, and uh it's been a hell of a ride, but uh loving every single moment of it. That's great. Hell of a ride.

Charlotte Ward: 1:16

That's uh that's how I feel a lot of people are describing their new roles lately.

Sam Semuhin: 1:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's it's great. Like it's uh it's a really, really fantastic company, and I'm I'm very excited for what's coming.

Charlotte Ward: 1:30

Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. Well, thanks for joining me. Um, we just had a little chat about what you wanted to talk about today. Um, so would you like to tell everyone else that as well?

Sam Semuhin: 1:42

Sure. So listening to the last couple of episodes, I thought that maybe it would be a good opportunity for all our fellow support leaders or support people, generally speaking, support-driven people, to talk about what are the best, you know, support tools and for now and you know, on the market, on our you know, opinions and what to, you know, what to look for in a tool depending on what you want to achieve.

Charlotte Ward: 2:11

That's nice. Yeah, tool selections always tricky, isn't it? I always get I always overthink it for a start.

Sam Semuhin: 2:18

Yeah, you really like it really takes a while because there's so many different you know tools on the market that can do a bit of everything. So it's really important to have a first of all, like have a great understanding of what your goals are, like what do you want to achieve with those tools, how fast you want to achieve them. And also, like there's a big question about you know how much cross-team collaboration can you do? Like, will you need a lot of operational setup or engineering, or will you need like to have marketing involved at some stage? Um, so yeah, it needs to you need to be aligned on on those points.

Charlotte Ward: 2:55

Yeah, yeah, that collaboration one is is one that I always find the sticking point, if I'm honest. Because there is nothing more I would love as a support leader than autonomy, but oh yeah, but like I want I I want to live in a little support bubble where not where nothing can do everything where I can do everything, where nobody has to touch or see or do, get involved in the triggers or the process or the experience, you know, and or the data. It's just actually all to be mine.

Sam Semuhin: 3:32

Yes, and with things changing quite rapidly in regards to like security and privacy online, I feel like it's really important to have people on top of the game within your company to make sure that the tool that you're choosing now will not be outdated, you know, in six months' time.

Charlotte Ward: 3:49

Yeah, actually, and and and I mean, as much as I would like to live in a support bubble, I think that uh that I think that um, you know, it's vital, isn't it, for a number of reasons that you do collaborate as widely as as the footprint of the tool really necessitates, um, as a as a minimum, but probably more than that, because the everything you've talked about around security and implementation is one side of it, but actually support touches so many parts of the business anyway, so that what whatever tool you implement is likely to have an impact, even if it's only an output to other parts of the business.

Sam Semuhin: 4:28

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You need to take you need to take a look at the bigger picture. I mean, like at the moment, um we've just implemented a new tool for NPS and CSAT called Simple Sat, um, which I can't recommend enough. I've been working with them in my previous company as well, and they're just the the user experience UX is so pleasant, there's no thought to integrate with you know other great tools like Zendesk and Intercom, which is always a big bonus, right?

Charlotte Ward: 4:59

Yeah, yeah. Um that that's often a big driver, isn't it? I think that it's um it's nice to step into an environment on day one and be able to choose your help desk. But yeah, I I think that's pretty rare. Like I don't think I I did that in one place, actually. I chose my help desk, but um yeah, there's the the help desk is often already there in some form when we move into a role.

Sam Semuhin: 5:25

Um yeah, absolutely.

Charlotte Ward: 5:26

Uh and then it's the thing that's the very sense that everything else has to talk to, isn't it?

Sam Semuhin: 5:32

There's always this big question around like, you know, your help desk. Is it the right one? Does it fit our does it fit our needs? Will it fit our needs in six months' time? You know, it's um yeah. There's always there's always a big question, Mark. And there's there's always like really good tools that are coming up with like great features like Help Scout, for example, which I've learned about quite recently. And it's um it's great to see people, and I really feel that for those kind of you know, tools, support is definitely at the core of of those companies. So they really understand the pain points that they're um that they're fixing, you know, by providing whatever feature or a certain experience for not only their clients, but like, you know, their users as well.

Charlotte Ward: 6:22

Yeah, yeah. I I I think you're right. I think you're right. I always wanted to work for a support tool uh and never quite got the opportunity. Uh it passed me by.

Sam Semuhin: 6:32

Um which one would you like to work to work there, to work in if you had to choose?

Charlotte Ward: 6:37

Goodness, no, I couldn't possibly say. Couldn't possibly say that. No, but I think I think also um I think also that there those opportunities are really rare, you know. But the support people that I know who have gone to work or develop support tools have have been, uh I will I will sanitize this in this British idiom, but they have been like pigs in mud. They have absolutely loved working for developing, you know, uh and supporting support tools. It just seems to be like the the place that everybody wants to get to somehow, at least at one point in their support life. Um it's like building your own toy, right? Yeah, yeah. Um, so the help desk, then, as we were saying, is is so central and it has it it reaches far into the business in terms of the data and and everything else and the things it has to integrate with. Um help scout is a great one. Uh Zendesk, I think is a great one. I haven't used, I mean, it's been a long time since I've used anything other than Zendesk, if I'm honest, but back in the day, there were some interesting ones I've used. Remedy, that was a that was kind of an interesting one that went on to become. And then Connect Care, I like going way back decades. Do you know Connect Care? Yeah, yeah. I heard about it, yeah. I don't know if it seems still alive, but but they were some nasty user experiences looking back on them now. Um at the time they kind of seemed innovative, but um, yeah. Um so given that in all likelihood, let's assume that the help desk is already in. Um all those satellite systems that you talk about, um, and again, let's kind of make the assumption because I think the bare minimum requirement for any tool is that it has to integrate with what you've got. Um all those all those kind of satellite systems are are where you can really play, aren't they? The smaller systems, the smaller footprint, the you know, the the things that are quicker to implement. What's your general approach to picking one of those smaller tools?

Sam Semuhin: 8:58

Yeah, so for me, it was really about how easy was it gonna be for my team to use it, because they're gonna be the one, you know, getting back to our to our users eight hours a day, five days a week. So it's important that it doesn't take too long to train them on the tool. Um, that it's like you know, they can learn by themselves, or it's fairly straightforward. And then the second point that's really important, obviously, is the whole analytics section. Like you need to be able to really dive into the data and understand, you know, what are like the top reasons, like you know, fairly, fairly basic things that every support person is looking into, like, you know, what are the top reasons our users are reaching out for? Is there something that we need to to improve when it comes to like the product or different like processes? And uh obviously to make sure that you have you know enough headcounts for the year because nobody wants to be overwhelmed with uh with tickets, obviously. Yeah, in support? Yeah.

Charlotte Ward: 10:03

Um yeah, the user experience is is is I think the most important because it it's just as you said, eight hours a day, five days a week is a lot to live with something that doesn't quite work. Oh yeah, absolutely. And and then the analytics too, I think that's really um super important because because what else like I think that how how else do you measure a the success of the tool that you've implemented, other than being able to dive into it and figure out, you know, uh is it capturing what you want it to do? Is it pushing things around or or or or you know, um forcing workflows in the right way? So I think you need to be able to use it to analyze itself, as which is a weird thing to say, its own success, as much as produce whatever the thing is that you want it to produce, whether it's a a CSAT rating or a conversation or you know, um a conversation review or whatever it might be. I think I think both of those are quite important. Um yeah, and and then I I'm gonna add something else, um which I think might be might might be something we can talk about, which is the implementation and the maintenance of a tool. Um because I have found almost universally most tools to be a pain in the backside to implement.

Sam Semuhin: 11:32

I have to agree.

Charlotte Ward: 11:34

Yeah. And those odd occasions where you switch something on, it's like, hang on a minute, is that it? Like, where's the screens of config that I normally have to go through? Um, and and the inexplicable menu systems where nothing makes sense or two different related config settings or four screens apart, you know. Oh my goodness, yes. So we've all been there. Yeah, we've all been there. Um, how important is it, do you think, that it's easy to implement?

Sam Semuhin: 12:02

I think it's key. I mean, like, especially nowadays when more and more teams are working remotely, you know, no, but there's not that many people that are, you know, five days a week um in the office. Um, it's your people are either hybrid or like digital nomads. So making sure that things can be done efficiently and simply without requiring too much help outside of like the people that need to set up the tool is really, really essential. I remember I remember like implementing like not implementing, but like reconfiguring Zendesk in my previous company, and it took a quarter to get like clean data coming in. It was an absolute nightmare.

Charlotte Ward: 12:48

Yeah, yeah. I think I think um my experience with let's let's name it, let's name Zen Desk. My experience with Zendesk is so much depends on what you inherit, you know. Um absolutely because I think I know if I was to go into a out out of the box, is that what we call it still? An out-of-the-box Zendesk implementation where everything was I I feel like I would know what I wanted to put in place, but rarely have I arrived at a situation where what I want in place is what's there. It's usually a some sort of spaghetti spaghetti bowl full of triggers and automations exactly. And unpicking them is that quarter's work, if you're lucky, actually, I would say. Um, and it's actually probably more in some cases where I've I've seen Zendesk implementations is more like the project of a lifetime.

Sam Semuhin: 13:40

Yes, yeah, yeah. It's a great tool though, like don't get me wrong. It's once you have once you have it set up the way you want it, like it is incredibly powerful. It is, but it does require a pretty good amount of patience and then attitude to to get what you want.

Charlotte Ward: 14:03

Yeah, yeah. You have to you have to be willing to not be frustrated by tools like Zen desk in the in the implementation, I think you're right. Um, and I absolutely agree, it's a great tool, it's very powerful. It it is just it's just that the effort of implementing some of the things that you know are special to you. Um is special, so you want things to do as do do something a certain way. Um I would say I would say the same of JIRA, you know. Um, and actually I would double down on that for Jira. Um, we use JIRA quite extensively where I am. And um I I heard somewhere once, and I live by this, you know, that as I heard somewhere, I think it was on another podcast, somebody said, You can say what you want about JIRA, but I've never met a job it couldn't do. Um, but it is the but it is the worst to set up, it is the absolute worst tool I've ever encountered in terms of of conf configuring it and implementing it, particularly if you want to do some fancy workflows. It's it's just awful.

Sam Semuhin: 15:10

Um it's really it's really funny you say this. So I use I I've never heard Jira until I joined Uplo, which we implemented quite recently. Um but I've had like a lot of feedback from people who either were using Jira or uh are still using Jira, who said that it was a complete nightmare. And um, our VP of engineering, Philippe Girolami, was the person who um first implemented Jira in France about 20 years ago. And uh I had this uh very open conversation with him and he said, you know, Jira can be anything you want, it's like a whiteboard. So if you want something simple, you can make something simple. If you want to make something really more complicated, more complex, then you need to have a clearer understanding of what you want to achieve and have the right level of engineering at the back to make sure that you know there's no hiccups.

Charlotte Ward: 16:05

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You need to understand that really JIRA itself, the the configurations and automations that you can set up in JIRA are almost engineering projects in their own right. You know, and and I must admit, I uh although I I spit hatred at at implementing JIRA, I love JIRA. I really do.

Sam Semuhin: 16:31

It's really great. It's really, really great. I'm quite I'm very impressed by uh the well, maybe it's the way it was set up, but I'm really impressed with how interactive it is, and it's a great collaborative tool.

Charlotte Ward: 16:46

It is, um, and it can be used for so many things. It's not as pretty as a as a Trello or as you know as marketing y as a as a Monday.com or something. So it's very much, it's got the very much the look and feel of an engineering tool, which I think puts a lot of people off. But uh, I run so much of my support team stay out of JIRA, and um I I'm a convert because I used JIRA and I used AJRA implementation about six or seven years ago and hated it and hated it. And I realized that what we needed here, because it's a such a complex environment, was sadly was JIRA. And um, and what I did was I just effectively in my mind, I didn't have the luxury of setting it aside in my calendar, but in my mind, I set aside six weeks to learn how to do it properly. And I just watched videos, I did research, I had all of that, the you know, the diagrams laid out. I literally had stickies on my desk about how different configuration settings related to each other.

Sam Semuhin: 17:55

You're very committed, very committed to make this work.

Charlotte Ward: 17:59

I wanted to get it right, and I implemented my team's JIRA boards, and it took me several weeks to do so. Um, and but I had such a clear vision of what I wanted, it's exactly what you describe. I knew exactly what I wanted it to look like at the end, and and consequently, the the the six weeks worth of of post-it notes floating around my desk with with with words on them like field screen configuration, what screen workflow issue screen just it was just so worth it. Um, I have to say, I've probably forgotten most of that. So what scares me on anything now is having to change something in there. Yes. But I did it, and I'm so proud of the fact that I did it and it works, and it works beautifully, even if I do say so myself.

Sam Semuhin: 18:46

But oh, that's great to hear. There's nothing more rewarding than like implementing, in my opinion, right, out of all the things you can do, like really implementing a new tool and making it a success. It's it's such a big thing to do.

Charlotte Ward: 19:01

And that was such a yeah, and that was such a personal investment. Absolutely. I'm still like that was that was a year and a half ago. And I'm I still uh I still occasionally sit on those Laura was like, look, see that, Jared? I did that. Yeah, yeah, it is, it practically is. But you know, those smaller tools that don't need that level of um in investment and and sweat and tears are uh are a joy, aren't they? Um you you mentioned a CSAT tool that um Oh yeah, simple SAT, yes. Yeah, yeah. And what was your implementation experience there? Was that a switch on and it's done kind of a thing?

Sam Semuhin: 19:37

It's very straightforward. So we started in the 14 day free trial first to make sure that would have everything ready and implemented before we'd go live. And uh it's basically like one click integration with intercom, one click integration with Zendesk. If you use Zendesk to have integrations with like smaller uh ticketing tools. like front as well.

Charlotte Ward: 20:01

Oh.

Sam Semuhin: 20:02

And so the integration is really straightforward. And then you just need you just need to create like your CSAS, your NPS, you know, pull out your triggers and that's it. You're ready to go.

Charlotte Ward: 20:12

Nice. Nice. I will take a look at that.

Sam Semuhin: 20:15

Yeah. Oh, do. Do, do, do. And their support is fantastic. Which is so which is yeah, which is so important because you want to make sure that if you have any question or if you're facing any sort of like technical difficulties, you want to make sure that you get a prompt reply. Just like, you know, that's what you're telling your team to do, right? And so this is sort of like I feel like this is nearly like a not a downside, but like, you know, every I don't know if it's the same for you, but every time I have to call a customer support somewhere, I sort of like have very high expectations because I work in the field and I get I tend to get disappointed a bit uh a bit fast if the level doesn't doesn't meet if if the level doesn't meet my requirements.

Charlotte Ward: 21:02

I I think I think I have uh I think there's no sitting on the fence as a support person contacting another support organization. I think you're either very understanding and very forgiving and very kind. Oh don't get me wrong and you have a and yeah and and no I mean but but like in in the you know you recognize what they're going through or you recognize the great service or you recognize that this is terrible. Yeah. I think that's yeah I think it's one or the other that's how I feel about support organizations.

Sam Semuhin: 21:35

Exactly exactly but anyway yeah they have a a great great support uh great support team and they're very keen on feedback on product feedback um so it's um it's great like we you can there's a great deal of collaboration happening because they're really at an early stage um still so it's um yeah I like I really I really enjoy it so yeah well done simple set um I I love that though like contacting other support teams particularly when they have a very close relationship to the product and um because rather like our assumption that most support people at some point want to work for a support tool um or build a support tool um there's nothing more that I love than giving feedback on support tools as well. Absolutely yes yeah absolutely this is how I mean like this is how you the the company grows like the tool grows but also like how you get what you want at the end of the day.

Charlotte Ward: 22:32

You know if you're able to articulate what you need why you need it like give the full picture again then chances are you know you're you're increasing your chances of of having it done yeah I I think it's something about being in the domain right I think I I I use a lot of tools and not all of them are support tools. I almost never give product feedback on anything that isn't a support tool though for some reason I feel really engaged to help and and contribute to support tooling by by way of you know reporting bugs, recommending features you know just generally being there and inputting into that ecosystem somehow in a way that even though I have other tools I love and use I don't necessarily contact their support team every other day with a question or a or a suggestion.

Sam Semuhin: 23:27

And that that's good because it means that the tool's working as you want you know in a in a way that's very true that is very true.

Charlotte Ward: 23:35

Yeah um for me I think you know I have a really close uh and uh uh sort of I guess positive relationship with the entire team at Klaus who we use for conversation reviews um I love Klaus I love the people there and um I just I I often will just send them a little screenshot and say oh it'd be nice if this and I love doing that because A I'm full of ideas and who who isn't when they're using something every day but exactly yeah but they're very receptive to it and because they're building a support tool for support people you know it's it's all good feedback. I do have other tools I use that are um have been wonderful but aren't I aren't traditionally support tools. So we use Clockify to track time which I know is controversial. Time tracking is controversial but I have to say um it's been and and I had a conversation with Ash Rhodes about time tracking a few weeks ago um where we we both have very very different feelings about time tracking. So that was an interesting conversation. But but one of my requirements for picking a time tracking tool was that it was frictionless and um for the team you know in day to day use. Yes. And uh I mean the same can be said of so many tools but this was a super important one because I knew they were going to this would be in every bit of their day you know um on every screen they were on it's not something they would be dipping into and be a bit annoying this would be there all the time and it was just easy you know it was we literally signed up for a trial and suddenly Clockify was everywhere. The the pop you know the the pop-ups were here the plugins were there you know there were it was just everywhere and easy and very intuitive and you could achieve what you wanted in multiple different ways but without it being burdensome to implement it was wonderful.

Sam Semuhin: 25:35

So great offs to Clockify um a non-support tool um but I think that's really important like either either easy make it easy to implement or make the support great you know yeah or absolutely or both absolutely or both yeah if you want to really reach for the stars do both yeah yeah so have you got have you got any other tools then um before we before we close out that you're absolutely loving at the moment uh yeah I mean intercom is really something I'm not using as much in my current company but uh I have to give them a lot of credit because I I've used them for two years and the improvement that they've made on their tool is just absolutely incredible. It's very very it has a lot of potential um yet their support is a little bit like I'm a I'm a bit not upset. That's not the word that I want to use obviously but um I I think they can if there's one thing they can improve on it is their support or the speed at which you know you get a reply in my opinion. But uh the tool is the tool is great well for not only for support but for the sales team for marketing people for product like it's just uh you can really bring on a lot of different departments into it which is great. And um yeah I'm kind I'm really loving front at the moment as well in terms of um of tool we're a very small support team here at Upflow and so I can only recommend front for smaller support teams you know who don't who are not planning to grow that much in terms of head counts you know in the next like six months or so or a year.

Charlotte Ward: 27:28

It's um it's great they provide good analytics the tool is easy to use it's uh quite collaborative as well like you can share draft with your manager for example if you're unsure about the tone of voice um so definitely definitely handy um and they have they have a really good help center and uh and support team as well so shout out to front great nice nice yeah I I that's uh that's something that I um I've often struggled with is is I want to invest in a smaller tool but I also want to be sure that it is going to still suit us a year from now two years from now because particularly for like the the big central tools you know I think um I'm sure you never will but if you really wanted to you could plug in a different CSAT tool if you wanted and it would be you know a smaller foot smaller impact than entirely like replicating your help center right oh my goodness that's the scary one it is really scary it is really scary I did that in my Bruce company moved from Zendesk to intracom and yeah that was a a big big big project yeah yeah not I think I'd rather move companies than move help desk I've never done it uh and I hope never to I either want to be in there and and just make it work or uh or implement something of my choosing from scratch because that really does scare me. I hope I never have to change help desks.

Sam Semuhin: 29:02

Yeah it's uh definitely quite a it's a project that gives you a bit of sweat definitely like so many tooling projects yeah yeah indeed like Jira all over again exactly but at the end it all works out you know if you put on the right the right efforts and and surround yourself with the right people then you know it's it's a it's a great um it's it's a great experience isn't it it really is it really is uh and seeing it in use every day whatever that tool might be um and being used well and achieving everything you want it to achieve producing the data or the outcomes that you wanted to get from that tool that's that's the best feeling yeah absolutely absolutely great and so I'm just like curious Charles like what are the the things that you look out for like that are really really important for you like I know you mentioned the the ease of ease of use like the experience and and support is definitely a plus like is there anything else that you're yeah that you're I think I think I think I'm I'm not so very different from you.

Charlotte Ward: 30:16

You know for me frictionless is I it's a word I've used a lot in the last two years but when support is not an easy environment in any organization and I just think whatever we can do to make our agents or or engineers' lives easier uh support people's lives easier the better. So frictionless is the word I will continue to use. And frankly I frankly I'm happy to soak up a lot of that pain if what we get like the Jira experience is like I will soak up a lot of that if what we get out of it is something that really works for us. I'd rather not have to but um yeah and then um I think I would like also something that's easy to maintain um which I think is different from the implementation pane you know I think once you've got it implemented if you if you have to just change something slightly or you want to add a little layer I think that ease of maintenance over time as as teams change as organizations grow um I don't want to have to go through the same sweat I went through at implementation for every minor change. So so I think sort of um the the ability for it to grow with us is really important as well. Yeah absolutely absolutely and and and just just to echo you the great support always helps. I mean I have had some shocking support from some big organizations and some wonderful support from some smaller tools for sure. So um that would definitely always swing something for me. So actually I think if there's one thing I would always do is when you're considering tools and try to look at two or three or five or however many you feel you need to satisfy your your kind of desire for completeness. But while you're looking at those two tools ask a question of the support organization. Yeah and see see how they you know see how they talk to you see how responsive they are see if they're asking and able to understand your needs because if they can't answer it when you're on a free trial it saves a lot doesn't it says a lot yeah because you're definitely going to be using that tool more and using them more. So I think that would be my top tip for checking in on the support experience of any tools is like ask your questions before you even buy absolutely absolutely and uh like support driven you know the support driven Slack channel is definitely great resources as well like to us to get you know some feedback on their you know other other fellow support um you know colleagues yes indeed like and yeah just absolutely lean on your network wherever it is right because um just having extra eyes everybody is always poking around in different areas of the of the industry and the ecosystem so so for sure just ask for recommendations and uh talk to people you know really just understand how they're using it what what they're doing and listen to podcasts like this one absolutely absolutely there's so many great resources out there you know nowadays I think it's it really is like one of the beautiful things about technology is the ability to connect with everybody and just you know create beautiful experiences like what we're having today and increase your knowledge you know so much whether it's with books podcasts videos like you can get anything you want it's if you if you search right it's it's so incredible. It is it is and this has been incredible Sam thank you so much for joining me today um it's been an absolute pleasure um I don't spend enough time talking about tools we should do this more often do come back and have another conversation with me won't you? Yes I'd love to thank you so much for having me that's it for today go to customersupportleaders.com forward slash two three six for the show notes and I'll see you next time