244: Fireside with Matt Dale

Charlotte Ward: 0:13

Hello, and welcome to episode two hundred and forty-four of the Customer Support Leaders Podcast. I'm Charlotte Ward. Today, welcome Matt Dale for a fireside chat. I would like to welcome back to the podcast today. Matt Dale, Matt, lovely to have you back.

Matt Dale: 0:38

Lovely to be back, Charlotte. It's always a pleasure to be here.

Charlotte Ward: 0:40

Thank you so much. Um, so we're feeling very cheery, um, but some customers, this is a terrible segue into what we're gonna talk about, but I'm gonna go with it. We're feeling very cheery, aren't we? We're feeling good. I'm feeling good.

Matt Dale: 0:53

No complaints here.

Charlotte Ward: 0:55

No complaints there, no complaints here either. Some customers have got complaints though, haven't they, man? That's what we're gonna talk about, right? Complaining customers.

Matt Dale: 1:04

That's right. Yeah. So complaining customers, they're always a always a challenge. I know as we go through our our busy season and even in our off season, um, you know, we tend to hear a lot from the customers that are having a rough time, right? You're not hearing from the people that are using your system and everything's working great for them, um, but you hear the ones that are having a bad experience. And I think it's really important as support professionals that we are responding to that in the right way. You know, people coming in, you can kind of approach it a couple of different ways. One, get defensive and be like, hey, you shouldn't be frustrated. I've provided you great support or or a product works well. Um, or you can say, hey, this is an opportunity for us to learn and grow. What can we learn from this interaction? We've got a frustrated person here. How do we understand them, validate their feelings, um, and then, you know, get them to a resolution. And then ultimately, what do we do with that information, that that complaint and that feedback? Who do we take it to on our internal teams and how do we help um, you know, resolve that issue and deal with the root cause instead of just that particular instance of the customer complaint?

Charlotte Ward: 2:05

Yeah. Well, I mean, you just gave me headlines for for about well, you just gave me headlines for about four more four more podcasts. Very good. Look at this. You're gonna have to have me back now, yeah. I am, I am. Let's start at the beginning then, which is a very good place to start.

Matt Dale: 2:19

Um, I think when you read, you begin with ABC.

Charlotte Ward: 2:23

Exactly. That's the one maybe Doremy.

Matt Dale: 2:25

Okay, good.

Charlotte Ward: 2:26

Yeah, love a little bit of the sound of music, but um at the beginning, um, customer complaints because I I can't remember what the statistic is, but customers are more likely. It's something like 20. A customer with a good experience will share that experience with something like three people. And a customer with a poor experience will share it with something like 20 people. At least that's what I heard like a lot of a lot of time ago.

Matt Dale: 2:54

But Charlotte, you and I are professionals here, so we we we can make something like this up and people will listen, right?

Charlotte Ward: 2:59

I mean, this is it's absolutely the truth, isn't it, Matt? Those are the numbers.

Matt Dale: 3:03

Those are the real numbers, they they may not be the the actual numbers, but they're the numbers here. So yeah, there's a large proportion of people that will share a bad experience and a very small that'll share a good experience. Like it has to be a really great experience to say, hey, this is really worth it.

Charlotte Ward: 3:17

Exactly. Exactly. Those are some numbers, and we're gonna stick with them. Uh so those complaining customers, then I mean, they we're lucky they come to us for a start rather than go out there and tell those, let's call it 20 people. Um so when they come to us, you you said some really interesting things which which struck me as as kind of um potentially having two meanings. And I had a little inward chuckle. Um, but maybe we'll have a little outward chuckle now. But let's just do it. Yeah, you said uh you said, you know, we'll we'll listen to those customers, which is very important, but you said validate their feelings. And what I thought to myself when you said that was we could see that complaint as valid, and we could validate the customer's feelings and validate their perception because we believe it ourselves, or are we validating it for the point purely for the mollification of the customer and doing nothing with it? I mean, actually the the validity of a complaint is kind of an interesting thing to unpack.

Matt Dale: 4:28

Yeah, I I would say that that there are two issues that we're talking about, right? And this is anytime you have an interaction with a customer, you've got the emotional part of it, and then you've got the problem that they're talking about, um, you know, specifically, hey, X is broken or Y is broken. I think as support professionals, when we focus only on the problem, um, if we can resolve it, then the person usually walks away feeling okay about the interaction. But if we can focus on solving the emotional aspect of it first and meeting them where they're at and validating those feelings and the frustration, they're then able and receptive to even if we don't have a perfect solution right now, we we can still have a win in that situation. And so I would say any situation where we're dealing with a complaint, it doesn't actually matter if it's a real complaint. We need to make sure that we are validating the feelings that they feel heard. I think once we've got through that interaction, once we've placated the customer and they're they're moving out of the field of view for a few minutes and they they're going away happy, then we have the job of unpacking that that complaint and saying, what's actually going on here? Was this something that I could have done better? Was this something that my team could have done better? Was this something that my company can do better? Is there a problem with the product or the documentation? And I think that's where the meat is in in a customer complaint, is really understanding why they are feeling this way. But I think before we can get there, at least to my my perspective, we have to deal with that personal feeling of I'm frustrated, I'm angry at your company, your product, your brand. And we need to, as support professionals, handle that. And so I think that's why I was making the distinction there. And I will stand by that it is a valid distinction that they need to feel heard um prior to us actually dealing with the real problems.

Charlotte Ward: 6:04

I I think you're absolutely right. And I think you summed it up really well. And it comes back to I think approaching your interactions with that customer with empathy, which is actually the very first topic we talked about in week one of this podcast two and a half years ago, if you'll believe that. But um exactly what you said, it's validating their feelings, meeting them where they are emotionally. Not necessarily like going back to that, those early episodes, not necessarily getting like hyper-involved in their emotions, but validating them, meeting them where they are. But then validating the problem is a separate thing, isn't it?

Matt Dale: 6:40

Yeah, and again, I think that goes back to kind of the second phase, which is how do I share this with my company? How do we take action on this? First of all, decide if is it actionable, you know, or is this just someone was having a bad day and they needed to kick the dog and we happen to be the dog? Okay, cool. Like I can, I can live with that. That that that might be part of my job description. But yeah, but it is there something here that's a that's a deeper problem. Is there's, you know, as as I go through, and I think we've talked about it, I think on this podcast with you about my troubleshooting theory and kind of general troubleshooting technique. One of the steps is preventing future occurrences, right? So we fix the problem, but then we say, hey, what what can we do to make sure this doesn't happen again? And if it's, you know, my car broke down, is there general maintenance that I can be doing? You know, do I actually need to be changing the oil on a regular basis? Uh, do I need to purchase new tires when they get worn out? Um, if it's software, do I need to be thinking about um changing our release process so that we're not we're doing better QA? Or perhaps the documentation isn't what it should be, or wow, the way that this button is positioned in the UX just doesn't make sense. And so in dealing with that, we can uh we can fix this person's issue, but also um prevent countless others uh who are who are having similar issues either now or in the future from having those. And so anytime we have a chance, I mean, I I actually look at a complaint from a customer as really a privilege. They've they've cared enough to share how frustrated they are. Um and it's it's our privilege to take that information and try to go, what's going on here? Let's be the good detectives and figure out um why. Let's look at the root cause and then can we can we resolve this? And it again, it may be something where they bought their own product, we're just not a good fit, knowing who we are and saying this is outside of that scope, that that's acceptable. That's fine. I can still help them feel validated and heard as they leave, but maybe I don't need to take action on that. But in other cases, it it can be a really powerful tool for our company to say, hey, how do we get a little bit better? How do we focus on that continuous improvement? And without feedback, uh, it's really hard to make positive change because you can make change, you're just not sure if it's positive because you don't know how people are perceiving it.

Charlotte Ward: 8:42

Well, it's like it's largely theoretical unless you're truly listening to your customers or or at least doing some kind of uh voice of customer, almost like directed research, right? Uh I I think I think that's definitely true. Um and then, you know, in those circumstances where you can fix upstream, where where it's a service issue or a product issue or or or even a miss sell, right? I I think that that that is a thing. It absolutely does happen, and you won't be able to resolve a miss sell for this customer, but because they bought the wrong thing. But you can prevent that in future sales cycles. So I think there's lots of opportunities to fix or prevent things further upstream. Um I think what's interesting is if you can't do anything for that customer though, how do you communicate it back to them?

Matt Dale: 9:39

And I think that's the challenge. And again, starting with that empathy and and the validation of saying, hey, like I hear what you're saying. It makes sense. I understand why you're frustrated. Um laying that foundation, then if you cannot fix the issue and can't get to a good resolution, uh, you have a better chance of having a positive interaction as they leave uh your their experience with you and with your company. I think there's also situations where the person is unhappy, right? We can't, we can't fix it, we can't make it better. They bought the wrong product, the product doesn't do what they want it to do, uh, and it it you know, it doesn't fit in with our current plans as a uh, you know, for our roadmap to to do this in the next six to 12 months. I think being clear about what we do and what we don't do is is really helpful. That's a hard thing to do. In our our company, we've we've struggled with this and we've been kind of going back and forth on um, we've got a bunch of JIRAs. So support reports an issue, it's it's a legitimate, hey, this isn't working as expected, or in this particular use case, it's not working well. Um and then it goes over to product and it sits in in JIRA land for a long time. I was I was cleaning up some. We have some that are like three years plus. Um, I can look at those and go, this is something that we're not likely ever going to do. Um, but I'm not the person that owns that part of the product. And so what we've been really working at uh in my company is to say, let's let's set some standards as an organization where we this is, you know, we're going to review each one of these and and kind of put it up against the roadmap. If we're not gonna fix it in the next three to six months, then let's close that quickly and get a reply back to the customer in a timely manner because they're still gonna be frustrated that we're not doing what they want us to fix or or to resolve their complaint, but they're gonna be less frustrated with that than if we make them wait two years and then tell them that we're not gonna do that. And and I think I think thinking through things from you know, trying to put your clients um perspective, you know, walk a mile in their shoes, so to speak, try to understand why why things are set up the way they are, and and then say, hey, like it could be better for our clients' experience if we if we receive their information this way and we reply back to them in this way. Um and I so I I think it's I think it's really important to be clear that that that's outside the scope where we can't fix this and to do it in a timely way.

Charlotte Ward: 11:45

Yeah, I I couldn't agree more actually. There's there's little point in leaving things sat there for a customer that's already frustrated. Uh, in in my experience, I've done very much similar exercises to you. Um, and and in an effort to fix it upstream, knowing that things can sit in product for a long time, too. Um actually giving the customer that expectation early and closing, closing the ticket even before product have assessed, assessed the JIRA sometimes, right? But with the with the right narrative and assuming that that customer can then say self-serve that information at some point in the future, like status of of that prioritization in product. Uh, I've absolutely got, I've absolutely had like, you know, you've asked for a feature. This is how we typically manage features, feature requests, and uh uh here's where you can find the information. And in the meantime, thank you very much. I'll be closing this ticket. I didn't use exactly that language, but but that was the sentiment of the communication, right? So yeah, nobody wants to sit around just waiting and looking at something. How irritating it is that you've got that email at the top of your inbox all the time. Yeah.

Matt Dale: 12:53

Well, and and I think it's, you know, we see it especially in our situation where, you know, we work with school districts and the district will request something, and it's it's clearly an edge case. Like it's way out there, they're doing something differently than everybody else. Uh, and it's a valid, like it makes sense that they want to do it that way, but that's just not how our tool is built. Um, when we let it sit like that, and and we set the expectation just like you said, hey, we're getting this over to product, we'll let you know it's gonna take a while. Um, when it comes time for renewal, though, every year, and they're looking and they're saying, Hey, what are our open tickets? Well, this one's been open for 473 days, and your support team is terrible. They're not responsive. And it's like, yeah, in those situations, I have to then spend some time to pull some reports and go, look, we actually provide, you know, our average and our mean time, you know, resolution, you know, from start to finish is actually really reasonable. Here are four outliers that have have caused you frustration. And and look, it's internally, look, product, like we need to we need to get better at this. That's why some of these initiatives are coming up because they're causing our clients to feel like to have a perception that we're not giving them good service when in reality we give them excellent service, except in these very edge cases where they want us to change something that we're just not going to do. And so, how do we do a better job communicating? So they're not saying your support team sucks, but what they're saying is, hey, maybe the product doesn't work exactly the way that I want it to, but at least I understand that it's not on the roadmap and this is what it is, and it's not what I want it to be. So I think that's I think it's really important and yeah, clear, clear communication, honoring your commitments. If you said you'll get back to them, get back to them on at that time and and and just be honest that hey, that's not something we're gonna do. That's much better than yeah, let me think about that, and then not getting back to them. So yeah, yeah.

Charlotte Ward: 14:32

It does build future trust as well, though, doesn't it? I mean, I think that that's ultimately what it comes down to. If somebody has had a a point of frustration with your product or your service or the features, whatever it is, um building trust that you'll handle those um challenges with respect and that you won't waste their time. And and frankly, that means you're not wasting your time either. So it's a win-win. Um and I I think that keeps the customer engaged more positively in the future.

Matt Dale: 15:04

Well, I think too, if we're if we're going back to the made-up statistics that we read somewhere but don't know what the numbers actually are from the earlier here, you know, a person it takes a lot to build positive trust, but a single action can can break all that positive trust. You know, you know, I don't know if it's 10 times good and then one time bad. It is. I re I definitely like that. I feel like there's a number like that we talked about. Yeah.

Charlotte Ward: 15:27

I think you're thinking of 11.5. That's definitely the number this is.

Matt Dale: 15:31

Yeah, that was exactly the number. Um, 11.5 positive interactions that way, one negative interaction. But but I think that's part of it too. It's it's really easy for us to do a great job a lot of the time. But then if we mess up um and we're not, you know, we're not doing things the way that they expect them to be handled, they're gonna be left with a negative feeling about your company or your or your team or your brand. Um, and that and that that's a big problem. And so when we talk, when we look back on the continuous improvement process and complaints, which is the topic of today, I think understanding where we cause that frustration and we cause that complaints and doing our best to eliminate the root causes or streamline the process to reduce some of that friction, um, I think that really makes a big difference in how how our clients and our customers are interacting with us and how they feel about us.

Charlotte Ward: 16:17

Yeah.

Matt Dale: 16:17

Um, which is really, really important because it's it's so easy for them to get so angry and blast us on public social media or something like that. And it's just not healthy. So invest in invest in uh, you know, building the positive and be really careful about uh, you know, making those negative experiences, um, especially when they've already come to you vulnerable and complaining and feeling frustrated.

Charlotte Ward: 16:39

So yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um and just so important to we used to call I don't know if they still call it, but closing the loop on every on every complaint, right? That that is, I don't know if that's an archaic term, and I'm showing my support age now or not.

Matt Dale: 16:55

I think I think I I I'm of a similar vintage there, so we're we're probably archaic, but I close the loop too. That's a good it's a good thing to do.

Charlotte Ward: 17:01

Yeah, yeah. So every piece of uh positive feedback is easy to close the loop on, but you definitely need to do the full round on all of those negative interactions. Um otherwise that 11 and a half percent is just it's just not 11 and a half times. Sorry, not percent. Now I am making up numbers. 11 and a half times. Uh it's gonna be a future problem.

Matt Dale: 17:21

I think it's interesting too. I remember back in my days as a computer repair guy, um, there were certain clients that you would have that you would screw up on regularly. Like I we had one, and I I it comes to mind because it it happened, um, I think like two or three times, but we'd have like a month where we'd have no problems whatsoever. And this person would bring their computer in and we'd lose data or it would take longer than they expected, or like, and it just felt like we were dropping the ball once that month, but it was with the same client like every time they came in. And I think it's uh I think that's an important thing too, uh, knowing whether it's through your your ticketing system or your CRM or something, being aware of uh how crispy is this customer? Are they are they feeling pretty positive? Is this the first uh you know withdrawal that we're making out of the bank of goodwill? Um, or is this uh is this a kind of someone that's had some repeat challenges? And and if so, being sensitive and aware of those, as we're talking about that first part of the complaint, invalidating those feelings, making sure that they're that they know that you know that they've had a poor experience, right? And that and that and that you're that you're really trying to to overcome that. And wow, you know, like uh one of them, it was this guy on his we had to replace his hard drive on his iMac, and I had to pop the glass part of the iMac off on the front. And I was trying to get the trying to get the lint off the inside of the glasses, you're putting it back on because that's you know, you don't want a little piece of lint in the middle of the screen. And I held it up to the light to look at it, and the whole screen just shattered. They're they're not tempered glass. Oh, wow, and we had to get so I was like, I had everything done. I'd worked all day on on putting this new hard drive in, and I had to wait, you know, another day and a half because we missed the shipping cutoff for the new the new glass. And so, you know, was the only time I've ever broken glass on one of those, and it was this guy that we had kept messing up on. And you're just like, how do we help make sure that we take care of those people? And if you start seeing someone like for whatever reason you keep messing up on, stopping making some time and focusing and going, I can't mess up on this guy, let's let's let's do it this the right way so that we're going slow and not not trying to go too fast and mess things up. So yeah, be aware of your customer.

Charlotte Ward: 19:20

Yeah, the the whole customer context is super important, and that is a a super piece of advice. Like be very careful when they're already sensitive. You need to know they're sensitive though.

Matt Dale: 19:31

Yeah, and be careful with non-tempered glass too, if you're big old sheets.

Charlotte Ward: 19:34

Be careful with non-tempered glass and 11.5 customer interactions.

Matt Dale: 19:40

Four percent as the case may be.

Charlotte Ward: 19:42

It's it's one or the other. In fact, I think they're equal. 11.5 is 11. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Well, we definitely did not make up any numbers, but I think we definitely also did not make up some uh awful advice. I think that that was really poor, but I'm gonna go.

Matt Dale: 20:03

As a listener, as you're thinking about this, you're thinking about um how how maybe this this podcast didn't live up to your expectations, you know. If you write that complaint to Charlotte, she's gonna be aware of kind of where you're coming from, she's gonna do her best to validate those feelings, she'll look at the CRM and see if you've had any negative interactions before. Um, and and we'll definitely file that uh complaint in the right department dealing with root causes and all that.

Charlotte Ward: 20:26

I definitely will. 11 and a half times or percent. Whatever, whatever it is. I think we should stop, don't you, Matt?

Matt Dale: 20:37

If we don't, we're gonna be in trouble. This is just gonna degenerate fully into something that nobody wants to do. Somebody is gonna complain. Yeah, yeah.

Charlotte Ward: 20:43

I'm I'm gonna wrap us up there. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Matt Dale: 20:48

It's a pleasure. I hope someday you'll let me back after a poor poor performance like this one. But uh yeah, it's been it's been a pleasure.

Charlotte Ward: 20:53

Let me get 11 and a half episodes out the door and then you can come.

Matt Dale: 20:57

That's that's fair.

Charlotte Ward: 20:59

Thank you so much.

Matt Dale: 21:01

Bye.

Charlotte Ward: 21:06

That's it for today. Go to customersportleaders.com forward slash two four four for the show notes, and I'll see you next time.