Charlotte Ward: 0:13
Hello and welcome to episode 308 of the Customer Support Leaders Podcast. I'm Charlotte Ward. Today Ash Rhodes talks about leading without trust. Today I'd like to welcome back Ash Rhodes. Ash, it's been a really long time since you've been on the podcast.
Ash Rhodes: 0:39
It has been a hot minute, hasn't it? I I should probably go back and look, but it's probably two years or something like that.
Charlotte Ward: 0:47
Something like that. Um, of course you were a regular back in the day. We've talked about so many wonderful things, but um in the intervening couple of years, a few things have changed, I'm sure. So do you want to just a few, right? Would you like to introduce yourself? Yeah.
Ash Rhodes: 1:01
Sure. My name is Ash Rhodes for those
Ash Rhodes: 1:05
of you who I have not met yet. Uh I am a fractional CX leader, customer experience for the uninitiated. And I I refer to myself as a fixer. I am frequently the guy who they call when everything is broken. Um the walls are on fire and the room is on fire, and we are all on fire, and oh god, is this hell? Um and so yeah, I I don't get the calls when when everything's working nice and and so on, uh, which is a shame because I don't really know what that would look like. It would be delightful. Um but yeah, so I just come in. I I just come in when um either there's nothing there at all and something needs to be built up from scratch, or uh, I don't know, they're hemorrhaging clients and they don't know why. Or man, um their previous leader just got headhunted and like nobody knows where anything is, kind of thing. And so gotta fix it all.
Charlotte Ward: 2:21
Yeah, and an interesting couple of examples you called out there because fixing is often framed as something's there, but it's broken. But you actually gave a couple of solid examples of like a gap, the absence of things to make things run. So the absence of process or tooling or team or leader, right?
Ash Rhodes: 2:39
Correct. And I mean, don't get me wrong, unfortunately, quite a few of the things that I have done involves things being really broken. But what I really prefer, I think all of us uh really prefer are the ones wherein there is just somebody realized, pardon my language, oh shit. We we were not prepared, we never even saw this coming. We need somebody who has been there before or at least has an idea of how to resolve this. And I have made an entire career out of planning for things that are absolutely insane, and then coming up with plans A through Triple Z for how to resolve them. And it I'm told that's called catastrophizing, but you know, or planning planning, whichever way you look at it. Yeah, exactly.
Charlotte Ward: 3:41
Um interesting. So uh I guess the question of who you're gonna call actually has a different answer then.
Ash Rhodes: 3:48
It's not always the Ghostbusters.
Charlotte Ward: 3:50
Sometimes it's always the Ghostbusters.
Ash Rhodes: 3:52
Sometimes it's the CX fixer. Yes. CX fixer. My own little plug there.
Charlotte Ward: 3:57
Yeah, yeah. Um well tell us about that. Is there a uh is there a page we can go to or a podcast we can listen to or well right now the podcast is this one.
Ash Rhodes: 4:08
So congratulations, you you hit step one. Um I am not always I never know what to say unless, you know, the charming Charlotte is coaching me on something or prompting me. So no podcast at this point. However, thecxfixer.com is my main website, or I'm on Substack at the fixer.cx. And you know, who knows? I might actually contribute to that regularly. Wonders never cease.
Charlotte Ward: 4:40
This could be the beginning of a beautiful reboot of the whole system.
Ash Rhodes: 4:44
Exactly. Exactly.
Charlotte Ward: 4:45
You did have a podcast for a while, right? The podcast would be out there somewhere still.
Ash Rhodes: 4:50
No, I I am not kidding.
Charlotte Ward: 4:53
You and I if we just talk that much, this feels like your shit.
Ash Rhodes: 4:57
Exactly. You you are my podcast. Okay. I I appreciate it so much. Um, I've I've guessed start on others. Sorry, I was I was cheating on you with others. Um but uh but no, I I'm not kidding. I never know what to to talk about if I'm not being prompted by others. So I can talk myself into circles.
Charlotte Ward: 5:22
I am very happy to be here to prompt in that case. Um so so speaking of which, um I will prompt you uh see what I did there on um telling us what we are talking about
Charlotte Ward: 5:35
today.
Ash Rhodes: 5:36
So speaking of when things are broken, uh I should have spoken very briefly uh during a recent uh conference in Amsterdam uh on the topic of working with teams from the position of very low trust. Now I say should have, because ironically, I was a little broken. I injured myself and so got up on stage and rambled and uh apparently said some funny jokes that I don't really remember. Um, but you know, fun times were had by me, I guess. Um however, uh that's what I figured we could talk about is just discussing the topic and um exploring that. How do you feel about that?
Charlotte Ward: 6:33
I feel great about that. Uh a live reenactment of uh I hope not. Maybe that was dress rehearsal, and this is the this is the polished version. So you you were rambling because of painkillers and stuff. I need I think we need to say at this point. And you're better now? Are you better now? Is the shoulder fixed? It was the shoulder, right? Or something like that.
Ash Rhodes: 6:53
It was the neck. Uh and sadly no, I could I could ramble about the Dutch healthcare system for quite a while. Um, but I think that this is probably not the the forum for it. Uh I do, however, have appointments to go and have it more properly checked out. I am not, however, on painkillers right now.
Charlotte Ward: 7:14
Um so we'll hit the topic. We may we may get some jokes in there as well along the way, but we'll hit the main topic.
Ash Rhodes: 7:22
Exactly. Um, it was it was an entire experience though. I have never spoken publicly while on painkillers. I don't know how actors and politicians and so on do it because I legitimately could not remember the title of my talk. It was, I don't know. I I have no memory of how any of it went.
Charlotte Ward: 7:48
So I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna say that I think the working assumption there is that they do it successfully, but I think we've all seen the politician who says some very questionable things, or uh, you know, well-known actors like you know, Oliver Reed, for instance, for someone from my era, um, who were not necessarily terribly cohesive and um might have done better had they had less substances, legal or otherwise, in their body.
Ash Rhodes: 8:16
Indeed. Well, and and I always just go to poor Matthew Perry, who, by the end of things, just so clearly was not himself. And poor guy.
Charlotte Ward: 8:28
Um, that's a very sad note. Uh I apologize.
Ash Rhodes: 8:32
Yeah, you're right.
Charlotte Ward: 8:33
I'm I uh this went uh this took an unexpected turn. I feel quite sad now. I um I'm an absolute friends uh file. Like I I I must have watched all seasons 20 times. Um and on the very laptop on whose face you on on whose screen you are project projected now on the other side of this lid. I have a sticker with a little line drawing of Matthew Perry walking off into the distance with the duck and the chick, and underneath it says the one where we lost a friend.
Ash Rhodes: 9:05
Oh, you're killing me.
Charlotte Ward: 9:07
Don't oh see, very sad, huh? Very sad. You went there. I know. Oh the feeling, all the feeling.
Ash Rhodes: 9:16
I was not, it is always too early in the morning for that stuff.
Charlotte Ward: 9:23
I know, I know, no. It's it's it's such a beautiful little sticker though. Um anyway. Um, I suggest we move on to um Yes, let's actually talk about this.
Ash Rhodes: 9:34
Oh, yes, more cheerful. The topic of leading without like trying to be a therapist for an entire team. Sure, why not? Let's that's way better.
Charlotte Ward: 9:47
Um I I I mean, we went pretty low. I feel like even if it's only a half step up, it's it's gonna it's gotta be better.
Ash Rhodes: 9:55
It is an escalation, no question.
Charlotte Ward: 9:57
Um I um I definitely don't have any stickers on my laptop about this, so I think we're in good good shape to talk about it.
Ash Rhodes: 10:04
I'll I'll make one for you.
Charlotte Ward: 10:06
Um thanks. So yeah.
Ash Rhodes: 10:12
Jumping right in. When it comes down to it, I feel that ideally, we as leaders, none of us are going to just like say, you know what? My favorite thing in the world is to go and sign up to lead a team that has that is anything other than functioning normally. Like, none of us want to go into a dysfunctional team or anything along those lines. Um but no matter what, if if a team was working well, none of us would be getting hired anywhere. Because why would they need us? Forget me, who comes into the most messed up teams. If a team was working entirely perfectly, they could run themselves. So what we have to do then is take a very solid look at what has brought us to be needed in these circumstances. And that could be I don't I don't wanna talk ill of any place that I've worked. I am not speaking about any specific place. Nor am I implying that any place you've worked, because I actually don't have details of anything. But it could be toxic upper management. Could be toxic middle management that have had to be canned. Uh really toxic customers. Uh bad, I mean bad processes, lack of pay increases. It could be and that's just like
Ash Rhodes: 12:20
why the employees are just unhappy. It could be that that there hasn't really been much leadership, and so the employees are not really been trained super well or are misbehaving or a million things. All the stuff that we as leaders have to deal with. But what we are talking about here is that lack of trust. And so what I uh encounter is those ones where when we're really talking about it, I find that frequently they're basically traumatized. It's we're talking I'm I I recognize that I'm kind of armchair psychoanalyzing an entire group of people. Please forgive me, I I am talking like very broadly. But when we like let's let's talk the most common psychoanalyzing thing. Fight or flight. When somebody is faced with something that's scary or whatever, they go into fight or flight. But the full term is fight, flight, spawn, or freeze. And when they are presented with all of this, like all of the stuff that you face as a leader in a team, all of those reactions you're going to be experiencing. Very true. So things like them hiding issues, lying to you about what's actually going on, them just not talking at all, abandoning the team, all of that stuff. It's all present. And so I'm just rambling at this point, but what it comes down to is that we have to, I I kind of implied it, we have to end up kind of their therapists.
Charlotte Ward: 14:30
A little, right. Yeah. I I I think that's fair. Um, I think, you know, I think what's interesting is you gave a really, really strong set of examples because the trust that we're talking about uh leading without is the trust of the people on our team. Um but that trust is lost in so many ways. And you named so many key ones. And I'm sure that if any of any of our listeners have been in leadership long enough, whether it's their current role or any of a stack of previous roles, we've almost certainly encountered most of those examples at some point over a 20 or 30 year career. I know I have, um, without naming no organizations or names. Um, you know, but yeah, the toxic upper management that just doesn't allow you to build something that is cohesive and gets the job done and that people enjoy working inside peers that don't engage with you well, let's say, full stop. And not going to go into detail there either, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, customers too, right? So customers who can't can't, who are basically not getting what they want from the system or the organization for any number of reasons or the product for any number of reasons. And so who are like expressing frustration, particularly to your team or to you, and like where you have no agency to immediately fix that. And so to your team, it seems like this girl, this guy or this girl is just uh, yeah, this girl, this girl is just like another talking head to your point. Um that um the absence of trust of being able to make things better, I think is a key part of this. And I think that particularly when you're stepping into a role, um getting that trust or losing it quickly, which can also happen, definitely never happened to me. Um never. But you know, the um the idea that uh you I think it boils down to this. I do not trust my leader to be effective at fixing any of these problems. Is that fair? Is it about efficacy and making my life as an IC better?
Ash Rhodes: 16:43
My take on it is that so when you meet a person out in the world, depending on your personality type, it could be I trust them automatically, I distrust them automatically, or neutral. Like they have to prove themselves. In a workplace environment, no matter if you have been traumatized or not, or what have you, there's a better than average chance that the trust level is going to be lower. The that you are not going to necessarily trust them because there are so many consequences to automatic trust.
Charlotte Ward: 17:34
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And things are things are accelerated and um uh compounded in the workplace as well, in a way they aren't out in the open world. So, you know, you meet someone, this person that might become a friend or a partner or a future, you know, business associate or whatever. Um, like when you meet people generally, you have the space. If particularly if you're one of those people that kind of stands back and wants to watch and have people prove themselves, you can you have an agency to do a lot of that at your own pace, which you don't have in the workspace. And you have all these external pressures to get things done, to engage, to have a positive relationship, make all of the positive changes, which just isn't necessarily realistic depending on the personality types and those reaction types.
Ash Rhodes: 18:23
Exactly. And so when we are talking about a situation like this where there is an even lower level of trust than normal, there is no shortcut to fixing that, unfortunately. Like
Ash Rhodes: 18:40
what you have to do is, I mean, ideally, you identify what happened, you figure out why everybody is so damaged, so that if nothing else, you know to not step on those landmines, to not make it worse. But you hit the nail on the head. You have to not just have like one or two big things to demonstrate that you're cool, you have to be consistent, you have to show up every fucking day and prove to them that you are trustworthy, that you are worthy of allowing you have to open the door and keep it open so that they then, like some sort of skittish animal, can walk in and and and feel safe. It it all comes down to again, these uh I mean, I used to hate it, but the the therapy talk, but it is it it's allowing these people the space to do all of this. And again, there is absolutely no shortcut. Like you can you can do little things like identify the the tastemakers and the ones who are really influential amongst the team, and it's not necessarily it probably isn't the leaders or anything like that. It's the like really influential people, but they don't wear signs. Like you just have to get a feel for it. Um, but that's that's my take on it.
Charlotte Ward: 20:22
That's I I I mean, yeah, no, I I think you I think you said I I I think you're you're spot on with the kind of every day, every fucking day, I think you said, you know, you have to show up, and you said prove, and my my head went try. Um as a like you have to try every day till you get to a point where you are proving um that you are trustworthy and effective and capable. Um, and given their engagement as ICs, are going to get the team, them, customers, all of the people to a better place. Um, because you know you can, you have to have that self-belief, don't you? You know you can. Because you've likely done it before. To your point, support leaders are fixers by nature, one way or another, from when we were ICs all the way through to today, um, one way or another, um, we're fixing problems. It's the nature of it. We're creating stuff and fixing all day, every day. Otherwise, why are we still in this job? But but but yeah, I mean the the the the the kind of I I I think it's a little bit heartbreaking when you do turn up every day in that kind of environment. You think, I'm gonna try again today. I believe I can do it. I I think I know what needs to be done here or here, whether it's a peer or a customer or a process, whatever it is that's gonna make everyone's day just a little bit better. But to have to kind of you have that self belief, but then you have to convince everybody else around you as well. It's It's tough. And um by doing that every day, you get there. But it's hard. It's exhausting, isn't it?
Ash Rhodes: 22:07
I could not possibly agree with you more. And it's one of the reasons why I I two things. Believe that we as support professionals, especially support leader professionals, have to have community, have to have people that even if it's just somebody saying, hey, you don't suck. You're you're doing a good job. And I believe in you. Even if you don't know what the other person's doing, you you're doing a great job. Um, but then additionally, and I I know I sound like an American here, but get some therapy. Support leadership is one of the most soul-crushing things in the world because sure it comes with a pay bump, but it's very rarely how much it needs to be representative, right?
Charlotte Ward: 23:02
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ash Rhodes: 23:03
Yeah. And it like and this actually kind of ties into something else, so but it's you're getting paid to be battered on both sides. Sometimes three sides, five sides. And that there are studies about how that has permanent impact on you and your brain. Like it leads to PTSD. It's yeah, you have got to have therapy. And not just, oh, I feel like I might need it today. If you can afford it every week, every other week, Jesus, for the love of God. I I cannot bury any more co-workers.
Charlotte Ward: 23:54
I hate to break it to you, Ash, but you sound American most of the time. So um, but I don't disagree. But I th I I I would say, as as the Brit in this conversation, that there are I and also like of of another generation, like therapy doesn't come naturally to me. The first word that you mentioned, though, is is very easily accessible to us all, and that's community. And it's not therapy, it's not doing the job of therapy. But it is, but it's uh it's a it's a safe space in the same way a therapy session is as well, I guess. And what's key about that is that if you find those communities, people understand you. They get that battering, they understand why turning up today and being greeted with this email from this peer or this customer or this IC is like okay, yeah. I've done that before.
Ash Rhodes: 24:46
Everyone, ash at roads.cc. If you can't find anywhere else, you've got me. Open to strangers who are in this world reaching out. I'm always willing to listen. And then additionally, uh Charlotte and I met through support driven, and they are excellent, and there's several other similar groups.
Charlotte Ward: 25:16
So lots of communities out there. Support-driven is excellent, and it's
Charlotte Ward: 25:20
very big, and there's always someone who knows what you're going through any point of any day. Um, I couldn't recommend it more. For me, this podcast has become a bit of that community as well. Speaking to like-minded individuals, or you know, um, even if they aren't like-minded, people who are trying to get the same kind of shit done every day relentlessly.
Ash Rhodes: 25:40
One of my favorite people that I love to just sit there and argue with, she and I could not possibly disagree anymore about how one should lead and so on. But she and I still like I go to her birthday every year, which requires international travel and so on. Because we still understand each other and what we're going through. So like anyway. God, she's such a pain in my butt.
Charlotte Ward: 26:10
Anyway, um You're not talking about me either, are you?
Ash Rhodes: 26:13
So I've never been to your birthday because I've never been invited. No, I'm talking about Valentina Turner.
Charlotte Ward: 26:18
Oh, Tina, Tina's lovely. Yeah, Val is lovely. She's great. Uh, she was on the podcast not so long ago. She's great. She is a podcast. No, actually, quite a while ago, actually. I must catch up with her. She gave a talk at Support Driven as well, I think.
Ash Rhodes: 26:33
Yes, she did.
Charlotte Ward: 26:34
Yep. Excellent.
Ash Rhodes: 26:35
Talking about how you will die and you need to be prepared for it.
Charlotte Ward: 26:38
I had the privilege of being talk editor for that one. Oh. Nice. So I'll just I'll just write I'll just ride on those coattails. It was an awesome talk because I got a sneak preview. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I should have come. Um, I will come to a support driven soon, I promise.
Ash Rhodes: 26:56
But there there's more than just showing up. Um, and just like being the shit umbrella, the being being the buffer in every direction. And um, but that is part of it. It's sh demonstrating not just that you're a good leader, it is demonstrating to your people that a lot of times people are like, well, I just need to show that I'm different uh or that they're gone or or what have you. Um You kinda you have to also show up in ways of like it's more than just finding how they were hurt in not doing that. It's finding the ways in which they are like what are their problems and going about fixing them however like okay, you they don't feel heard and they don't have any budget for hiring and so on. You can't go in there and become an IC and take that load off, but you can fix the eco You can spend some time in the queue to understand what that actually means and then demonstrate that to the people who are making those calls to be a better advocate. You can be very publicly experiencing their pain so that you can properly enunciate it elsewhere. Yes. Because it doesn't just it doesn't I I mean I hate to say it, but it doesn't count if you are just quietly working behind the scenes.
Charlotte Ward: 29:06
And I think that's uh that's a mistake uh early stage support leaders often make, right?
Ash Rhodes: 29:12
It's like late stage, I do that sometimes, and it doesn't fucking help.
Charlotte Ward: 29:16
It doesn't help. It doesn't help. I have had conversations with organizations that have hired me in where I have been very explicit. I I can't even actually do the work of the front line. I just can't. I I was hired for a different role. You know, if you wanted a support person, they are cheaper. Hire one. Like I'm here, I'm here because I'm still a support person. I still, to your point, fix things, want to fix things every day. But my job in any leadership role I've been in is to fix the ecosystem, is to fix the, you know, the scaling mechanics, the processes, the relationships, the the feedback mechanisms, you know, all of those things are things that it's the support leader's job. And without that support leader, the ICs will continue to experience, yeah, experience situations that lead them to the problems we started talking about, which is, you know, my the product doesn't work. I can't, I just don't even know how I'm gonna get through the day. This customer's gonna shout at me again today. I don't even know how I'm gonna deal with that. Um, you know, and uh and all of those, you know, um stress responses are are gonna exhibit one way or another without the support leader doing their job. And that's hard to step into that environment cold, but you have to do it, you have to show up every day and do it every day, and then you will affect the right changes, and then you will earn the trust.
Ash Rhodes: 30:44
Yes. And and I do think it's important to note that like so many things in this world, we will always feel like, oh god, this
Ash Rhodes: 30:55
is this is such a unique thing, or this is broken in such a horrible way. There's only so many ways in which things can get broken. There's only so many different archetypes or what have you that shit's gonna break. No matter how overwhelming something is, someone's done it before, someone's fixed it before, someone's seen it before. Don't be afraid to reach out to a community. Don't be like, nothing is so bad that it's not been seen before. So and and no matter how bad we somebody previously messed up, they have it that also has been done before. So reach out, man. Read again, reach out to me, reach out to somebody in support-driven, what have you. Like it's we keep talking about how bad some of these things can be, but there's fixes. Nothing is ever so bad that it cannot be fixed.
Charlotte Ward: 32:01
And there's often multiple fixes, right? And and I I think listen to a lot of people, go into support driven, speak to Ash, drop me an email, Charlotte at Customers Supportleaders.com. Like same. Just reach out and you'll get a ton of advice. You'll get a ton of listening ears, because that's what support folk are really good at. Uh, and it will be not just meaningless sympathy, it will be support and empathy that you can act on. You'll get that from anyone in any of those communities, and you'll certainly get it from me and Ash.
Ash Rhodes: 32:31
Yes, absolutely.
Charlotte Ward: 32:33
All right.
Ash Rhodes: 32:34
Thank you very much.
Charlotte Ward: 32:36
You're welcome. Thank you. Why are you thanking me? I suppose this is your podcast, right? Is that why it is.
Ash Rhodes: 32:41
I mean, hostile takeover and whatnot.
Charlotte Ward: 32:44
So damn it. All right, okay. Well, we'll we'll come to a deal. We'll come to a deal.
Ash Rhodes: 32:49
As long as you continue to edit things, like I would rather chew glass than edit audio. Photos, no problem.
Charlotte Ward: 32:57
Yeah, indeed. Indeed. Uh I minimize the edits as much as possible nowadays. Uh my very first episode took me like two hours of editing back in 2019, end of 2019, when I recorded episode one with Jenny.
Ash Rhodes: 33:11
Umbody got time for that.
Charlotte Ward: 33:13
Nobody, I love it. Yeah, ain't nobody got time. I can't carry it off because I'm British, but I try. Ain't nobody got time for that. I I do not have time for that. I love that. That was beautiful. Oh, okay. All right. Well, uh, luckily nowadays editing takes me a minute because I have a chop chop, couple of sneezes or whatever to chop out, and then we're done.
Ash Rhodes: 33:34
I sounded like an idiot in there. He swore too many times. Cut that out.
Charlotte Ward: 33:39
Yeah.
Ash Rhodes: 33:39
Whatever.
Charlotte Ward: 33:40
By the time I'm finished, this will be about a three-minute episode, but you know. I'm kidding.
Ash Rhodes: 33:47
For you and the horse you rode in on.
Charlotte Ward: 33:50
I won't tell you what he's doing. It's a good job I don't record video for this. Um all right. Okay, thank you so much for joining me again after a bit of a hiatus, Ash. It's been lovely to see you.
Ash Rhodes: 34:01
It's been great seeing you. And we like I I would very much like to do this again sometime soon. So I'm see, it is your podcast.
Charlotte Ward: 34:10
It is your podcast because I was about to invite you back, but you just invited yourself. So, okay, all right. If you want to have me back anytime, you're my I'm I'm most welcome. You're most welcome.
Ash Rhodes: 34:21
You are most welcome back to the uh customer support leaders podcast by Ash Rhodes and featuring Charlotte Ward.
Charlotte Ward: 34:30
Thank you so much. I'll come back next time. All right, talk to you soon. That's it for today. Go to customer supportleaders.com forward slash three zero eight for the show notes, and I'll see you next time.
