Charlotte Ward: 0:13
Hello and welcome to episode 312 of the Customer Support Leaders Podcast. I'm Charlotte Ward. Today Val Thoerner tells us that we're going to die. So what? Today I'd like to welcome back after quite some time Val Thoerner. Val, it's lovely to see you again. I know we've chatted a few times in the last few months, but it's been an age since you've been on the podcast.
Valentina Thoerner: 0:42
Oh, very long, yeah.
Charlotte Ward: 0:44
Yeah, I think we established at least a few years. So it's lovely to have you back. Um given that it's been a few years, would you please uh tell us who you are and where you are right now, what you're up to?
Valentina Thoerner: 0:55
So physically, I'm I'm still in Barcelona and Spain, even though I'm from Germany originally. The weather is better here. Um, I'm right now working as head of product for a little uh anti-racist startup. And uh I have uh I opened a fiscal advisory for people in Spain, and through that fiscal work, I ended up looking at finances a lot, and that's how I ended up thinking a lot about how do we set up our finances in a way that when we die, things don't fall apart.
Charlotte Ward: 1:27
Oh, okay. Okay. Well, uh good advice, valuable for everyone, I'm sure, because there is an inevitability to that, I suppose, which is the uh which was the title of the of the conversation that you proposed to me, right? That you're gonna die. So what? Um, but I I I suppose um I I think it would be great just to dig into.
Charlotte Ward: 1:48
So you're working for a startup now. You have a long and illustrious history in the support space, though, don't you? As well.
Valentina Thoerner: 1:56
So my background is support, and I'll always, even though I'm now in product, but support makes me a very specific type of product manager. I'm always very focused on how can we translate support needs into product requirements and product results into support uh successes. Because one of the biggest differences that I realized when I moved from support into product is that the language is very different and time is very different. So ASAP and support means something very different than it means it means a product. And product it means ASAP is next sprint. So you as support, you're going to see the result in two months. But in support, ASAP means yesterday because the customer is screaming at me. So, like, how do you translate between these two areas? So, whenever I start with a new uh company, I usually now I'm head of uh head of product director of product level. I always the first thing that I do is like, okay, how do our processes look? How do we do products here? And where's the connection with customer support? And it's really interesting. Even with all the AI, even with all the data, with everything, this loop, this feedback loop is still missing in many companies. And it's not rocket science. But very often there's not the like the awareness that having a direct connection to your customers and not just your complaining customers, but all customers, so customer success included, it's actually a goldmine to know what you want to solve for next. Not just the customer who screams loudest, but actually using real data and then bringing these two back together.
Charlotte Ward: 3:40
Yeah, yeah. That that loop is just so often fractured. It's it's amazing how broken or non-existent it is in in many, many organizations, as you say. And and I mean, um data is one part of it, but I think just just that appreciation of like how each other, how the opposite side of that loop, how product works, how support works from their perspective, um it is something that we just need to make a bit more human as well. Like I think you can put all the processes in place that you want and and drive data and send it over. But until there are some key understandings, like you just mentioned, about the difference between ASAP on two sides of that loop, the that there's just constantly gonna be friction in that um, those wheels, isn't there?
Charlotte Ward: 4:28
Yeah, yeah.
Valentina Thoerner: 4:28
I you because I very often work in multicultural companies. Usually I'm uh I make sure that at some point they do a culture map workshop so that we appreciate the different kind of national cultures that come together because Spanish people uh manage conflict very different to, let's say, Italian people or German people or Belgian people or US American people. So like understanding these differences really helps communication, but there is also a distinctive culture between parts of the company, like saying very different to customer success, customer support, very different to product, very different to engineering. So having almost like a mini culture map workshop to see, okay, this person, they are not stupid, they come from a different culture. And when you are in this part of the organization, these are your incentives, these are your worries, and this is why this person has reacted like this, not because they hate you, but because they live in a different, like they they work in a different environment, even though it's the same company.
Charlotte Ward: 5:33
Yeah, yeah.
Valentina Thoerner: 5:34
I isn't really helping there because it's shifting a lot of the conversations only to the data and takes the human out of it. We're losing a lot of experience, especially on the support side, which is kind of the first part to get to get gutted in these big restructures.
Charlotte Ward: 5:49
Very true.
Valentina Thoerner: 5:50
Uh like we put all of this constitutional knowledge basically on the support side. And I think we are not doing ourselves a favor with this. And AI makes us all a lot more uh conflict-averse. Yes, very true. Conflict management is a skill that you need to practice. Yep. Yep, and it requires you to spend time with people, exactly, and also to like to get to know like people who don't have all the context about you, who communicate very differently to you, who maybe don't really care what your goal is, because they have a different goal, and they're not going to say yes just because you want them to say yes. And like these and this is for small and big things, but if we don't practice this on the small things, then it's very different, difficult to actually bridge this on the on the bigger.
Charlotte Ward: 6:41
And it's and it yeah, and it is crucial, isn't it? Because unless any like in order to be successful as an organization, you all ultimately have to row in the same direction, and that might it might mean you have different goals, but you all have to take the business in one direction, which is gaining customers, keeping customers, and uh and uh uh making customers successful through that. Um and so you know the business wouldn't exist without those customers coming in the door and staying. And so um whatever your like uh functional goals are and what your piece of that puzzle is, if it's a con if it's in conflict with someone else and you can't negotiate or mediate or um you know uh operationalise or whatever around that, then then that's gonna slow the the organization down ultimately. Yeah. Yeah. Super fascinating.
Charlotte Ward: 7:40
Now we spend a lot of our time at work. Um I we just before I hit record, we uh we had a bit of a discussion about how little vacation we've had and what vacation is coming up for us both. Um and uh I I I think that where my sort of head landed is I spend a lot of hours at uh work every week and I love it. Um but there's gonna come a time in my life when maybe I'll be working less and um there'll be a time in my in the future where I there'll be no work for me, right? Because I will this is really tenuous, but I'm going with it, Val. Like I I will apparently you you you kindly informed me just bewent before we went on air that I'm going to die. So kind kind of some I think the connection was something along the lines of get some get some vacation in while you can, because you are going to die, right? Enjoy yourself, right? Um, but but yeah, what what is this? What is this? Uh what is the problem with this inevitability? Why are we here talking about the inevitable inevitability of our demise on a on a not on a nice little support, you know, cozy support chat, little cozy support podcast. It feels a bit dark to me. What's all that
Charlotte Ward: 9:01
about?
Valentina Thoerner: 9:01
Uh so yes, you are going to die. Um I mean, we all know this, and we all try to look the other way. I mean, talking about death is a little bit like maybe 20 years ago talking about sex, like it is the taboo topic. No one wants to talk about. But it does happen. And what happens in our age group is that our parents start dying, and then we are left with sorting through the mess. Very often, literally. And then depending on how big the house or the farm or the the apartment they had, that like the more you have to uh sort through, and then uh we haven't even touched the digital part yet. Like, do you have access to your father's Google photos?
Charlotte Ward: 9:47
Like, do you know what I do? Because I I finally wrestled his passwords off him. Yeah, because do you know why I got tired of providing technical support at the weekends every time he forgot his passwords? So I did.
Valentina Thoerner: 10:02
Yeah, no, like this is one thing, like if you can get your parents onto one password or some one of those password messages, then you get the master password, like that will make your life so much easier like once something happens. But for our generations, it's actually even worse because I was able to hack into my uh dad's uh account when he died, into his Google account. And I was able to reset everything. Like I have a one password, but there's no way in hell my parent my kids are going to hack that password because it's a lot more difficult than my dad's option, which was my name and why my name, one exclamation mark, or or yeah, always or or question mark because you need a special sign in there. But the the thing is, if we like the moment you die, you leave behind not just the grief, you need behind you leave behind a lot of heartbreak. And that is something and work that I want to not have my kids to be working through on top of everything else. Like I want them to have time to grieve and everything that I can design beforehand down to the how I want to be uh buried. And if they then decide something else, do you? I mean, I'll be gone anyway. So, but if you don't want to decide, this is the default choice. So I want to set up the default choices so that they can go with this. And for myself, it also means I can take this vacation now, not just because I know that at some point there won't be any time left for that vacation, but also I'm now in my 40s and I can still do time zones with relative only a couple of days adjustment. I assume that when I'm 80, I might have a harder time with like l like going to Bali or going to New York than now. So maybe if I do want to see that specific place, when do I want to put plan it in? Considering that at some point my health might not I hopefully it will, but I'm I don't want to count on it. So like which things do I want to prioritize now and which things can I leave for later? Like my big Sudoku challenge, I can leave that for when I'm 90. Like it's fine, and opening a book and using a pen, and maybe I need bigger glasses. But with trips, with trips is different. So by having this awareness, not just I am going to die, but also statistically. So statistically, I'll be get to 97, 105. You ask your favorite life insurance company, and they're going to tell you because they have a vested interest to get it right. And then you're like, oh, I have another 50 years left. 40. Then I look at health data, I look at my mom, how healthy she still is. So I probably have a little more time than many other people because she just started trampoline lessons, as you do when you're 73. So but it still means I have to think about okay, these are things that I want to do with the kids also. Like the kids are going to age, so what are the things that we enjoy together now? In five years, they won't be in the mood to talk with me anyway, because they will be gone into adolescent whatever adolescents do.
Charlotte Ward: 13:19
Yeah, yeah.
Valentina Thoerner: 13:20
I'm familiar with that state. So it's a little bit about how can I plan my life around the goals and needs that I have or the things that I want to avoid, and and this is the difficult part how can I talk to the people around me so that they know what to do when it happens? So I I I'm an expatriate like uh or an immigrant. I don't have family here. It's me and the kids. The kids are too small, so they are not going to take care of if I get run over by a bus tomorrow, the kids won't make any decisions. So I have three people in my life who exactly know where to look to find the information that they need should something happen.
Charlotte Ward: 14:11
Yeah, yeah. If that happens once more, I'm
Charlotte Ward: 14:20
gonna go out and have a word. They're shouting right outside my door. I'm so sorry. I will pick this up. Make a note now. There's an idea. I'm so sorry. Um, what was your last point? I was just like, I I I'm following it up to like, and then I just got quite irritated on that last sentence.
Valentina Thoerner: 14:37
So I I have three people in my life who know exactly where to look. So there is a physical thing that they can pick up, which is basically like the binder you get from your wedding planner.
Charlotte Ward: 14:50
Yeah.
Valentina Thoerner: 14:50
But like for your okay, now basically I I'm dead. This is your problem now, but here is what you need to know.
Charlotte Ward: 14:58
Cool. I will pick up from there. I'm so sorry, it was so distracting. I was trying to ignore them, trying to ignore them. Then the last one, just as you finished and waited.
Valentina Thoerner: 15:05
Yeah, I saw it like it spiked. They're getting spiked. Yeah.
Charlotte Ward: 15:09
Right. Okay, so I'm gonna pick up from the binder. Um that that that's interesting then, Val. So um these are people, presumably at this point you have a you've had a very open discussion with, or God love them, they're gonna find this binder somewhat unexpectedly. So you've you've had you've had the brave conversation, you've done the planning. These are three people that you trust. And I love the I love the fact it's three and not just one built-in redundancy in sort of absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So you really have planned this out.
Valentina Thoerner: 15:42
And I go through it once every year or two years because friendships shift. Like the three people I have now, I have now are not the same three people I had five years ago. Like one of them changed, which is totally fine because you you lose out of touch, the person moved away. Like, I need people who live where I live. Like, I don't need somebody who lives in in Madrid or something because that is too far away. So there are a lot of like I need somebody who is not super emotional because I don't want him to be a puddle that can't make any decisions, who loves me enough that they're going to do this, and who lives close enough, and who like know they know where in my living space the thing is that they have to run. Like that's the thing. They don't have my master password because I don't trust anyone with that password.
Charlotte Ward: 16:30
Sure.
Valentina Thoerner: 16:31
But the master password is written down in a safe space and they know how to access it.
Charlotte Ward: 16:36
Right, right, right. Yeah.
Valentina Thoerner: 16:38
And then once I'm dead, I don't care anyway.
Charlotte Ward: 16:40
Yeah, yeah. I mean, never never a truer word, right? Yeah, absolutely. Um when you're um when you're thinking about that from the perspective of these final plans, that's one thing. And and to your point, you don't care anyway. And like if people around you make different decisions, you do you, you know, if your kids want to bury you at sea instead of instead of your your favorite plan, you know, like I I I guess, yeah, you're not around, so so let them do what makes them happy. If it's not what would also have made you happy, or like you say, not your default plan. Um, but a lot of what you touched on prior to the actual inevitable moment in everyone's life when they are no longer alive. Um, you you touched on all of these other goals and staging your life out so that the things you were planning were appropriate to the budget, your physical capabilities, timing of uh other elements of your life, like you said, like whether the kids are this age or that age, around or or or not around. Um have you had conversations? Is that part of like the binder conversation where you say this is this is why I'm doing this, but also this is the other planning I'm doing for the rest of my life? Does it is it a is it a conversation that narrates that journey somewhat?
Valentina Thoerner: 18:03
Um kind of. So there are some things that I want to do where I have said to the people who are doing it with me, we need to plan this now because I'm afraid we're running out of time. And usually the answer is, oh, right, because there are some plans that you have in your life where you're like, one day I'm going to. And this is my my mom has worked for a long, long time in hospice, and she was like, People very rarely regret things they did, but they usually regret a lot of things they didn't do. And they usually didn't do those things because they were waiting for something.
Charlotte Ward: 18:39
Yes, yes.
Valentina Thoerner: 18:41
And don't without even knowing what they were waiting for. Like now is not the right moment. And so it's like if you want to so so, for example, I've and I'm a huge fan of Japanese tea, like especially like shaded tea, like not matcha, but like shaded Gyokuru tea and sensa tea, like very, very huge fan. I had my own tea shop at some point, but I've never been to Japan. So one of my dreams is to go to Japan and to actually visit the the tea plantations. And my kids, like uh especially my son, who's super into video games, he also wants to go to Japan. So we have now planned that we're going to go to Japan when they turn 12. Because it's a nice age where I can already trust them to get with the rhythm that of all the things that I want to see in in Japan, they are still young enough that I can call the shots on most things without too much.
Charlotte Ward: 19:34
Have you told them this, by the way, that we're going when you're 12 because I can still still call the shots?
Valentina Thoerner: 19:39
No, I told them they were only 12 because they're old enough to actually retain many, many of the memories they're going to get.
Charlotte Ward: 19:44
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Valentina Thoerner: 19:45
But I actually only put it into the the like I made this plan when I realized, oh wow, I mean, I'm getting older. I'm already preferring to go to on holiday in Europe because I don't really like time zone changes right now. So this is going to get worse. So if I want to go to Japan, I probably should do it in the next five to ten years. Because at some point I'll just say, not doing this anymore. Yeah. So and I and then I don't want to be at some point, oh, I should have when I when I had the opportunity. So it's kind of this, and then the the these conversations with my kids, I didn't tell them, hey, we're going to do this now because one day I'm going to die, because that's maybe putting a little bit more.
Charlotte Ward: 20:26
10-year-old does quite a lot. Yes, yes, yeah.
Valentina Thoerner: 20:30
But like uh with my running friends, for example, it's like I want to do this race because I know right now I am capable of doing it. And I don't know if in five years I'll still have the same stamina and fitness. Maybe I do, but like let's do this now because I know I can do it right now. So let's take the time and put in the planning and the the money to travel there and to do this race. So it's like these kinds of things. And so the the people I mean, everybody around me that's I'm that I'm slightly obsessed with death. Uh, so it's not a surprise for them. But like it is a topic that the more you talk with other people around it, the more you can normalize it. Because, like, even things I have things here in my house where I sometimes jokingly say, Oh, and when I die, I want you to have this thing. And this is also written in my binder because there are certain things here that I want others to have because they're they kind of they they connect with these people, and then everything else, you can just throw it out. I don't care. Like you don't have to go through all my belongings and say, Is this a treasure or is this trash she forgot to throw out? Like, I don't want them to have to make this mental decision because it's hard enough to kind of go through your own wardrobe and decide what you haven't worn. And I imagine doing this for your mom or for your friend when you don't have all of the connections. So these are the 20 things that I want to go to these people. These are my bank accounts, these are my investment accounts. That's how I want them to be distributed. between friends and kids and donations and the rest donated. I don't care.
Charlotte Ward: 22:08
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Has this um has this perspective on your personal life informed your professional life at all?
Valentina Thoerner: 22:18
Yes. I think the the idea of is this really does really make a difference in the long term has made me more impatient. Because there are or maybe it's just perimetapose. I don't know but there are a lot of a lot of discussions where I'm like okay we do it your way. Like I know I I'm not going to invest energy in this because the outcome will be roughly equal and if you need this for your ego for your career for for what whatever I don't care. We'll do it your way and then yeah like let's go on with your life or this customer is going to turn oh my god product needs to roll out 23 different uh things to save that customer okay let's sit down and look at is this a customer that we really want to maintain or are we just running after like because they shout the loudest so it gives you a certain perspective on life it this idea if I do this or if I don't do this will I regret it 10 from now.
Charlotte Ward: 23:31
Is it important enough right and I I suppose the um the the ultimately what everything you've talked about in terms of your planning and your your goals and the timing of them it's it ultimately all comes down to is it important enough? Do I care enough about it? And that's that's kind of really just another word for prioritization. Yeah. It's like is this the thing I want to spend my energy on right now? And if not is it something we can do next week or next sprint or or next quarter yeah and and if we're not thinking about doing it in the next four quarters do we even need it like can we just get that out of the backlog and then the documentation part.
Valentina Thoerner: 24:11
So I I'm kind of I have documented a handover of my life to my kids and my friends who I see as my extended family here. At any job you need to do the same anyway. Like you need to or like I like to have what I do documented so that at some point I can leave the position and hand all of this over to someone else without making their life more difficult. And I mean that not because you need to leave the company but if you are not replaceable you are also not um promotable so like if everything you do is basic if you are replaceable they can uh elevate you to the next level you can apply for their promotion because you can say you can promote me because everything I'm doing is now so well documented that another person can take over within three weeks or less or something. So it's the same skill set. It's kind of always take over your priorities once you remove yourself or you have been removed.
Charlotte Ward: 25:17
And it's even it's even earlier than that really if you think about it because it's not at the moment you step away or that you the moment that you apply for that that you know level up role. It's it's actually unless you're planning to hand things off you're you're falling into the trap of not documenting them keeping them like some sort of nutty squirrel but then you can't delegate them either. So you can't grow other people either.
Valentina Thoerner: 25:46
Yeah yeah you are also going to die ultimately no I think the conversations that I had with my friends when I explained them that I basically wanted to be the executioners of my will for basically I think it these conversations made them grow yes yeah because it it kind of it is a huge sign of trust from my side and also a huge responsibility and I was very clear like if you don't want to do this this is your prerogative like I'm not going to force you to do this. But if you're going to do this like I need you for example to spend an afternoon with my kids at least once a year.
Charlotte Ward: 26:34
You don't need to be my kid's best auntie or uncle but they need to know you
Charlotte Ward: 26:40
yes because if something happens while they are still small you will be involved yes in some way or another yes yeah and they need to be able to understand that you handing off some of the the execution of your wishes to this person.
Valentina Thoerner: 27:00
Exactly really truly was your wish you know yeah yeah yeah so I mean now the kids are 10 but like when they are 20 the conversation will change and when they're 40 the conversation will change again which is another topic uh if you plan to leave anything behind for your kids to inherit and not everybody plans for that like there are people who want to spend everything before they die which I think is uh a good idea you already pay taxes on it but if you plan to to leave uh money behind do you want to leave the money to your kids when you die or do you want to put a mechanism into place so that they can inherit before you die and in my case when I die my kids will be in their 70s. I hope that by that time they have figured out their life. Yes if they haven't figured out their life by then whatever they inherit from me won't make a difference because they won't know what to do with it. So actually I have set it up in a way that my kids are going to inherit a first portion when they are 30. I don't trust people at 30 because I was in my 20s but they're children have to yeah you get married I don't know you buy a house you you want to travel the world after your second layoff or whatever like so that they then have money that they can actually invest.
Charlotte Ward: 28:20
And and to your point like if they've learned anything from you then they will have learned that by the time they're 30 there's probably some things that they want to do exactly that that are uh are gonna be less accessible to them in another decade from then so so start planning while you're 30 to do something.
Valentina Thoerner: 28:38
Yeah yeah yeah kind of delegation yeah exactly yeah and it's interesting the biggest pushback that I get is like oh no this sounds super control freaky and I don't want to plan out my entire life and I'm like yeah but if you don't plan anything I'm not telling you to plan your life by the five minute interval but maybe give yourself three things you want to do in each decade. So that you have something to look forward to something to like to work towards something that you wake up in the night and you're like wow three years from now I will be in Japan drinking tea on a plantation or something like something that really gets you fired up because it's also a motivational thing.
Charlotte Ward: 29:19
Because if you always go with the flow well the flow always goes downhill very true very true yeah yeah I I think that's such an optimistic note to end on as well the flow the flow the flow always goes downhill um uh I think so I uh I must mention that I've been listening to a song by the British band The Specials recently I must have listened I don't know why it's just really caught my imagination the last few days and it it uh it reminds me a lot of some of the conversation we've had today where um uh the lyrics go something like enjoy yourself it's later than you think um the years go by more quickly than you wink
Charlotte Ward: 30:00
uh yeah yeah uh and and it I think finally it just goes on to say it's good to be wise while you're young. So I I think it sounds like to me um you are imparting the wisdom wisdom or or certainly will over the intervening 20 years by the time they're 30 where they'll actually you know get their first first portion that uh your children are going to learn something about how to live their lives from you as well. So uh there's there's actually no better legacy than that I think.
Valentina Thoerner: 30:28
Yeah. Yeah.
Charlotte Ward: 30:30
Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing this uh Val. It's been so lovely to have you back on the podcast. Talk to to talk to something quite different as well but but just to demonstrate like this does touch on every every aspect of your life you know it changes how you think about so much and uh uh thank you for sharing it. I hope it's changed some other people's thinking out there and uh not go with the flow and just accept things and accept fake quite so often. Yeah.
Valentina Thoerner: 30:56
Yeah thank you for letting me talk at length about this topic. I really enjoy it.
Charlotte Ward: 31:00
Thank you so much. Come back soon won't you I will that's it for today go to customersupportleaders.com forward slash three one two for the show notes and I'll see you next time
