53: Panel: Handling layoffs like a human

Charlotte Ward: 0:12

Hello, and welcome to the Customer Support Leaders Podcast. This is Section 53. I'm Charlotte Ward. Today we have another special panel edition and we're tackling a very difficult topic. This week we're talking about layoffs. First of all, to the panel today, I'd like to welcome previous podcast guest Matt Dale. Matt is VP of support at Illuminate Education. Welcome also to Greg Scurving. Greg is a support manager at Broadcom in the Symantic Enterprise Division. And welcome also to Kimmy Tesson. Kimmy was remote customer experience manager at Airbnb for nearly eight years. Welcome also to new guest Max Bauer. Max is a customer service leader with over a decade of experience in the video gaming industry. I'd like to also welcome Vijaya Panthagani. Vidja leads the priority support program for US Enterprise customers at Citrix and is based out of Bangalore in India. And welcome also finally to Kaylin Bailey. Kaylin works with Matt at Illuminate Education and is Director of Customer Support there. Thank you so much everyone for joining me today. So we are here in very difficult times. And this seemed the best time possible to talk about a very difficult subject, which is how to handle layoffs and how to let people go and how to treat these human beings like human beings at a particularly difficult point in their career and a particularly difficult point for our organizations. So I'd like to thank you all for joining me. And I'd like to open up the conversation first of all with a little bit of a discussion about what you think have been some good experiences or some good uh stories that you've come across when you know this is going to happen, whether you want it to or not. I mean, quite often these changes are not our decision, right? So how do you handle that when you first find out? What's your approach? How have you felt in that kind of situation?

Kimmie Sesnon: 2:24

Hi Charlotte. Um, this is Kimmy. Uh you know, I've been really fortunate in the fact that I've never technically been laid off. But um my daughter does work for Salesforce and they had to lay off 200 people because a product was going, which happens. Um, but she just texted me and she said she was almost in tears because they decided that every one of those people who essentially was gonna be paid until April and that was it, they were no longer being laid off. They were being outsourced to other areas, or even if they weren't used, they were gonna still be paid and their insurance was gonna be covered, and they were going to put out to other larger companies that CEOs do the same thing. Um, that doesn't mean that those people aren't going to be laid off. They know, gosh, it gives them time to not only come to this moment and other acceptance, but to start looking for other um opportunities while they're going through this. I thought that was really cool, really classy.

Charlotte Ward: 3:35

Yeah, so so being forewarned is definitely being forearmed, right? Um how do you how do you think that plays out though in their mindset as they're still trying to continue to do the job?

Kimmie Sesnon: 3:48

Yeah, that is um, that is without doubt there's gonna be instances of people tending not to do their, you know, maybe slack a little bit. But I think that that's our opportunities as leaders, as managers, to hop in there and be um compassionate and empathetic, but also not give them an ear full of, oh, everything is gonna be okay. It sucks being laid off. You know, you want to be honest and truthful. And um, you know, what these people do right then and there in their jobs will still bear weight on what happens going forward in their mute position. So, in a sense, I want to say everybody, you know, yeah, you'd want to do this, maybe, but you know what, do a great job, and then I will give you a really great referral going forward. You will, you know, you'll show that you can carry it out in the tough times. And some of these, especially these layouts layoffs that are circumstantial that have nothing to do with them, they just have to be able to sort of own it, and as an adult, you just have to grit through it and but as manager you can make things better.

Charlotte Ward: 5:00

Yeah, yeah. Um how how do you prep for that then, do you think, as a manager? How how do you think you once once that decision's been made and and as I said, it is often outside your control. How how do you open those discussions up?

Matt Dale: 5:17

I think from from my perspective, there's kind of two things you have to think about. You need to think about the person that you're going to be or the people that you're going to be laying off, and you have to think about how you message it with the rest of the company. And I think both of those are are are similar, but they're they're actually very different in in what you want to think about. When you're talking about the person, um, you want to be how do we help them, how do we be humane through this? How do we be compassionate with these folks that are going through probably one of the worst experiences of, you know, certainly their week or their month? And how do we help make it set up so that they are uh feel taken care of through the process, that they can process their emotions? And you know, I've seen these go anywhere from I had a person that was screaming at me and throwing things at one one situation, and I've had situations where there's kind of a quiet acceptance, like, hey, yeah, yeah, I could see this was coming, we we needed to do this. This makes sense, I'm really hurt, but you know, uh I'm okay with that. And you can kind of see the whole spectrum there, but I I think we need to plan for how do we how do we communicate that? Is there a specific message that we need to, from a legal perspective, communicate? And if so, is there room for us to be human as well and you know, plan for uh having a um you know, a box of tissues that that's there for the person, or or you know, being able to be, you know, what words are we allowed to say from an HR perspective and and what words are we required? And and so I think that's half of it. And then I think the other half is okay, now we've got this team here that's hurting. They've lost a uh a number of people in the organization, maybe people that they worked very closely with, they were friends with. And how do we interact with them? How do we give them enough information so that they can see what has happened and and understand some of the reasoning behind it? Because if you don't give them that information, they're gonna fill it in with their own thoughts, and and that's gonna go to kind of a worst case scenario. Like, well, this this this group of people got laid off. I'm expecting to get laid off too, and I'm freaking out. And and and I think as leaders, we have that responsibility to take care of them, give them enough information so they know what's going on and and and how this affects them. And and I think, you know, like like Kimmy was saying, be real with them. Don't don't make stuff up and don't, oh, it's gonna be fine. Like, hey, this is a tough time for us as a business right now. We're trying to hedge our bets, you know, looking at the virus situation. We're trying to make sure we have enough cash flow so that we can be a viable business in August. And we don't know what the future looks like. So right now as a company, we're deciding to do this, and and here's here's here's the action that's been taken. It's really hard for us, um, just like it's really hard for these people. And you know, how can we how can we um move through that as an organization and and know that we're gonna have people that are gone and holes in the company, but we need that we need to band together and and do what we can to to continue moving forward.

Charlotte Ward: 7:47

Yeah, yeah. So having a not just a plan for the layoffs, but a really careful communication plan is really important for both the internal folk and the external folk.

Matt Dale: 7:58

Um the ones where this has gone well for me is when we've had good communication plans in both cases. The ones where it's gone really badly is when it's a surprise and and senior leadership is saying, hey, we want to keep this completely under wraps because we're worried about it leaking or whatever. And then, you know, managers and and directors and and VPs don't know it's coming and it it comes as a big shock. I think it's better to get as many people on under the under the tent so that they can make those plans and be there for our folks.

Kimmie Sesnon: 8:24

And inevitably, under wraps never works. So you always, you know, you hear that, and that is the worst. As being a manager that, you know, has dealt with this before in smaller circumstances. Um nothing's worse than having your people tell you something before you knew it. I mean, that is just, or I mean, from Airbnb's perspective, my users.

Charlotte Ward: 8:51

I'd be like a walk of what? The worst situation I'll have I've ever had is um being told at about 2 a.m. in a hotel bathroom while I was on holiday that these decisions had been made and I was gonna have to impart that information over the next couple of days to my team. But as you said, the thing is, underwraps like that never works. People find out, particularly when you're in a large organization and you have time zones at play. But there's so many organizations where people forget that at the high level, that the people that are six hours ahead of you are gonna know before you know that something is happening today. So underwraps never works, does it?

Kaylin Bailey: 9:36

I know organizationally, um, you're right. I don't think underwraps always works, and I've seen it go uh in the direction where HR pulls the managers together a couple of days before and we really get to come up with a plan. HR gets to set expectations and we can ask questions, and that I think is a really good way to set us up for success as managers to do layoffs. It also for me was a good way to go, okay, if I'm feeling something or have questions, these are the people that I can go to in these next couple of days while I hold on to this information that's really hard to handle until the point where we deliver the news. So I think that organizationally it's really helpful to get leaders together and and have a conversation as well.

Kimmie Sesnon: 10:18

That's the best way to do it.

Max Bauer: 10:21

Yeah, fully agree. I can only say the the best ones I experienced, and sadly I had to go through a couple of them and work through them. Uh, and the best ones, if you can say best ones, at least uh those that went reasonably well, um, were the ones where there was a lot of planning. And I think there's not enough planning that can be done beforehand. Uh, ideally in a small group, I would actually say to keep the initial group as small as possible because the leaks always happen. And it's the worst if the entire team knows that something's coming already a month before, and that just is so much insecurity that even the people that are not affected, um, they will start looking for another job. And that's exactly what you not want to have. Um, and in in that light, also, those are usually the people that are the highest performers because they have the best chances to find a new job, and you want to keep those usually around. So um, yeah, planning. Planning is the main thing. Uh, small group, uh, plan as much as you can. It will never be perfectly smooth. That's impossible, but especially the communication plan needs to be as detailed as humanly possibly, and then you have a good chance of getting this through in an okay manner.

Kimmie Sesnon: 11:32

Yeah, I was gonna say that sometimes the fallout internally can be just as emotionally devastating because this is like a death in the family. It can be because we spend more time with these people than we do our spouses or friends or girlfriends or boyfriends, technically, especially like I'm I was remote, and so literally I was available all the time, and and you spend an ungodly amount of time with your people at work, and when all of a sudden it's not planned and it's just one day you're done, it is so unbelievable. It's less about the job, and it's more about loss and going through that grieving process. Sometimes you don't even think about the job, you know, and and you know, at a time like this, everybody's talking about it, but that's as a manager, something that I always have liked to do is follow up with my team members, not just once, but keep on doing it and offering um resources and an ear and someone to be heard. And if they need to vent, vent, you know, just be them for them, but don't fall off the face of the earth in times that these people need you most.

Charlotte Ward: 12:52

Um, you you've really segued very nicely into one of my other discussion points, Kimmy. So I think we should go there right now, which is talking about how we manage that fallout from the inside, because you're right, this is a parting of ways, and there is grieving to be done, and there is management of that, all of that fallout to be done from from us as leaders. Um how how do we do that?

Kimmie Sesnon: 13:16

What's the best way we can help the people who are left?

Max Bauer: 13:22

I want to say um something here um that I've seen a couple of times in uh redundancies, and that was that um upper management was expecting productivity throughout the entire time. And that's just terrible because there's it's the least that people have on their mind is doing their normal job and being productive. Um so at the very least, a week we just don't look at KPIs at all. And if they want to do work to distract themselves, that's cool. But if they just need time to talk with their peers and work through this, they need that time anyway. So you'll pay that price if you give them some time off or just ignore KPIs or suffer through it in the weeks after because they burn out. You'll have it either way. So it's better to count it in right from the start.

Matt Dale: 14:10

Well, I think on that point too, it's very easy for us, especially if we've been involved in the planning process, to kind of go, hey, like I've had time to process my emotions about this. I've I've made a decision, I understand the backstory. Um, but for the thinking about the folks on the front lines here, this is brand new news for them as of when you tell it to them. And and it is going to be a shock. It's a loss, and then there's pain. And so to to say, hey, you know, get back in and keep doing productive work. Well, I may have been thinking about it for a week. This is the first time that they've had to process it, and and they need to go through that for time. So I think I think a week off of KPIs or or whatever, just being realistic about that is really an important part of the planning process.

Charlotte Ward: 14:46

Yeah, and I think I think so much that is so true of any big upheaval in an organization, isn't it? Anyway, you could apply that let's that logic of just ignoring the KPIs. That that just for me, it's just it's not really asking them to take their foot off the pedal, it's just giving them a bit of headspace to deal with what's going on, whether it is a a a bunch of layoffs or a a very strange working from quarantine situation, these big changes, we need headspace to be able to cope with them. And and overly over-concentration on KPIs and over focus on KPIs at that point is too much pressure.

Kimmie Sesnon: 15:25

Yeah, absolutely. I don't really staying away from the word of metrics and also HR isms. I don't know about you, but and it looks like I might, I'm technically in another generation. And it was really new to me when I, especially when I started or maybe in 2011, um, it gradually these HRs, this HR speak and HR isms, and I was like, it was like an electric shock every time someone would say this new thing. I'm like, take it out of your vocabulary and just be real, you know, it know that pain. Feel it, feel that pain. We've been through it. But I agree with the KPI.

Charlotte Ward: 16:09

Kaylin, did you have something to add there as well?

Kaylin Bailey: 16:13

Yeah, I think that support's in a unique place where it's a little harder than other teams, but giving them opportunities straight away after something like a layoff happens to meet as a small group, but then maybe even meet as a whole team is really important to make them feel heard and feel like, oh man, I might not have felt comfortable in the all hands meeting asking this question, but it's on my mind and um it's a good way to support them and let them, you know, grieve together as well.

Vijaya Panthagani: 16:38

Just to add to what uh uh others were saying, so um one thing that I wanted to bring to the table was it's really important to be emotionally prepared. I've been through it twice, um, letting my team know that there are some layoffs going to happen. Um I work in Bangalore, India. So uh there is a lot of emotion involved, and uh if we are not prepared to take on the different types of emotions that come from the team, uh we are going to get drowned in that. So uh it it's a skill to be built over a period of time. And uh that that is something that I really learned the first time that I did it. I messed up and um I I couldn't handle the emotions that came my way. I I wasn't really prepared for it. So uh the moment we hear the news from the top management, it's important, in my opinion, to be uh start prepared emotionally, becoming emotionally resilient and playing it in your mind, visualizing what kinds of questions people would ask, what kind of uh emotions would come into play, and um kind of be prepared for it, else uh I feel that you know it it's going to be uh not so good of a place to be. Yeah.

Greg Skirving: 17:50

And uh yeah, I was gonna say for the folks that are left, they still have a little uncertainty as to what their future is. So you have to be cognizant of that. Um also uh as leaders, you know, you need to do a good job of knowing your people, and immediately you're gonna know um who will take things in stride. Um and what's what's really important is is for folks that have never experienced it, it's all new to them. So being uh being able to uh share experiences, uh reassure and and let people know that uh that things will work out. They do need that decompressed uh uh uh uh time. Um everybody needs a little bit uh you know more of it or less of it. Um but uh you know uh let people uh let people grieve a little and uh and then slowly you can get back to back to focusing on uh on the job, which also in turn, you know, uh gives people a little more certainty as to as to what their future looks like.

Charlotte Ward: 18:53

Yeah.

Max Bauer: 18:54

I want to add here uh to that in terms of the future, what their future would look like. Uh something that helped me a lot is to always have a plan in the communication for the future and not just say this is a redundancy. Um we are cutting down now, but for the sake of cutting down or making more profit or whatever that reason is. It's important to be honest and give that reason, but also to have a plan in place and communicate that and tell them, look, this is going to be the team structure, and these are the people that are gonna take care of this task that is left over. Um, just to really just make sure that you communicate this plan for the people that are left, um, for them to have something to go on with so that they know that this is not just coming out of the blue and surprising you as well, but they can actually trust you in knowing the way forward.

Charlotte Ward: 19:42

Yeah, I think that uh Rijay ra raised an interesting point there that um there is going to be a whole mix of emotions here actually with the people who are left. Uh and as you said, Greg, it's kind of knowing your employees as best you can and how they might react. I think that's really important. The other thing I want I want to add to all of this is don't pretend it didn't happen. You know, I the the the organizations who have these big layoffs and then expect people to turn up on the Monday and just get on with their job with these empty desks next to them. I find that whole experience slightly disturbing. And I think that pretending it didn't happen actually kind of drives a wedge between your you and your your intact team as well. I think that the once these people have been let go that were their teammates, if you pretend it didn't happen, if you refuse to acknowledge that this is a situation that you all now have to deal with, that you you do risk driving that wedge between you and your staff. And that wedge is kind of difficult to remove, you know. I think it's a it's a loss of trust somehow. And I think also it it fosters kind of secrecy because people start to feel like they can't communicate with their ex-colleagues. And those kind of communications and conversations go underground in a way. Um and it just doesn't breed for a great, you know, remain a great team spirit for those that remain, I think.

Kaylin Bailey: 21:20

I totally agree. I think it's actually, you know, better do the opposite of that, encourage them to reach out and support their colleagues. And one of the things that I think you can do as a leader to show that is go on their LinkedIn and write them a review, and that's something that everyone can see and um kind of set that example. And it helps them, you know, in their endeavors at searching for a new job as well. I think it's also and do it promptly.

Charlotte Ward: 21:44

Sorry, Matt, and do it promptly, right? How many of us promise to write that LinkedIn reference as they go out the door and then we get on with our jobs for another four months? It's like do it that week, do it that, you know, do it that week or two weeks if you can. Get it out there ready for them to go back in the market.

Matt Dale: 22:02

So so let's think about those uh sorry, sorry, I was just gonna say on that on that note too, Charlotte, we can actually, if we know it's happening ahead of time, you can actually write those in a text document on your computer and be ready to go so that when it happens, you don't want to be suspicious and weird ahead of time, but if if you have a little bit of breathing room to be able to say, hey, like I've cranked through these prior to the emotions that we're gonna be dealing with that I need to deal with as a leader, I can kind of front load that work and then be there for my people who are gonna be leaving, um, but but have it ready for them. I think that's really, really powerful. I I think this is also a time as leaders where we can be, it's really important to be genuine and to be, it's okay to show emotion in this case. I think there's a a real big push um in in business to say, hey, we're all you know a bunch of strong and robots and we don't have feelings. And and for your team to see that, hey, this is really hard. I I I don't think it's fair for us to be in the the the thing with letting the person go and say, hey, you know, this is really hard for me too. That's that's baloney and we should never ever ever have that in our vocabulary because our day is nowhere near as hard as their day is. But I think for our team to say, hey, look, this is this is hard for us to do as an organization. I'm feeling I'm I'm Miss Joe. I wish he was still here. He was a great part of our team, to have that that moment of being real and and human, that that's an opportunity to connect where they can say, ah, you know, you know, to Max's point, we've got a plan. Here's what we're gonna do to take over the extra work. But I just want to let you guys know like this is something that we're struggling with. This is hard, this is bad, this is this is not the fun stuff that we want to be doing as an organization. And and if you can tap into that and and be real, then your people are gonna see that and appreciate it. So I think it it's kind of a make or break situation. We can either have a real big positive where they can see you as a leader, or it can be a he's a robot or or she doesn't care, and you know it's a winner-a-lose there, and and you want to make the right choice.

Kimmie Sesnon: 23:50

And there are other leadership styles. I think this is a perfect opportunity for people to learn how to reach out to another leader that they know is really good at the emotional side, and that because this is tough, they need people that are empathetic and compassionate. So if you know that you're not, um, as anyone that's dig in insights can see, you know, what color you are, um, how to how to approach those people, it's great to have someone else to gain um learning from in this in this point. I personally end up always crying, which isn't a good thing, but you know, or using me to way too many emojis, but there is something to be said about that, you know, heartfelt style.

Charlotte Ward: 24:39

Well, it prevents you from entering into too much cliche. So sorry, Caitlin. Um, it prevents you from being too cliche, doesn't it, if you're willing to be a bit emotional about it, because the I think one of the worst way ways you can handle this, and maybe we'll we'll go on to talk about the outgoing folks themselves in a second, but one of the worst ways you can handle this as a leader, aside from being a true robot, is just to be the the cliche machine. You know, it is what it is. You know, please don't go there.

Kaylin Bailey: 25:11

Yeah, I think this is a scenario as a leader that people would appreciate emotion to the point of tears. I think that it's it's justified. And again, like Charlotte said, you're not a robot and you do care. And it was hard for for everyone, you know.

Charlotte Ward: 25:26

So let's um push on with something that we touched on briefly earlier, which is some of the support we can give the the folks who are leaving. We've already talked about prompt LinkedIn references. What else can we do to help them with that transition out into their job search or into a new role or you know, whatever other part of their life they're going to expand into next?

Greg Skirving: 25:51

I think uh I think the thing is um uh well, except for Kimmy apparently, uh remembering the first time you were laid off, um I I know that I was fortunate enough to get outplacement services at the time. So there was a smooth transition for uh for me. But um obviously in technology, uh people get laid off. Uh and and I've been in situations where the companies had to lay off people, I'll uh you know, obviously provide the support that they need. Um, but I'll also um help them with the resume, uh help them help them dust that up, uh dust that off and get that spruced up. Um also reference. Um we did some uh layoffs recently, and I was references and actually you know was on calls with uh hiring managers um as uh as a reference for my folks. So just letting them know that um I'm still invested in them, even uh even though they're gone, um really helps.

Vijaya Panthagani: 26:54

One of the sorry to interrupt. One of the recent trends that I've uh seen on LinkedIn when we started uh, you know, when the whole COVID-19 thing started was I've seen several managers um, you know, writing about their people who have been let go, tagging them and then connecting them to recruiters on a public forum. So the amount of comments and the references and people willing to uh you know pick them up or talk to them or message them on that platform was really amazing because it's not like your regular recruiter, but you have a whole platform of people becoming like part-time recruiters to really help out in these situations.

Kimmie Sesnon: 27:43

Yeah, depending upon the tenure of your team as well, as much as I hate to say this, this could be it's like lemons into lemonade. Um, sometimes people have stayed in positions for far too long and they're just sort of doing their thing. And I've I found that you can add humor to something as tragic as having a team laid off or a department laid off. If you can find that place where you can laugh or find something to laugh about, it really helps.

Max Bauer: 28:16

I'm gonna put on a really obvious one, and it's uh time. The more time they have to find a new job, the better. And that often translates just simply back into money. So if you do have the influence to increase the severance, then I would always say that's the most impactful you can do for them. Um, I've often seen companies do like token things where they get like a parting gift of the product that the company is doing. Um, and uh if if there's a decision between the two giving a product or a gift versus a higher severance, I would always say give the severance, even if it might look like boring or cheap or we're not doing enough. But money is time, it means giving them a better chance of finding a new job soon.

Kimmie Sesnon: 29:03

Yeah, absolutely.

Charlotte Ward: 29:04

Um I think that there there are other things that you can do if the pot isn't huge. And let's face it, I think it's unlikely to be huge in the current climate for a lot of organizations. Um you know, whether you could if with some planning, if you're lucky, you as Greg said, you can have kind of outplacement or career coaching, that kind of thing in place is really useful. Um certainly following them on their journey after they walk out of the door, virtual or otherwise, of of the organization, and and giving them a lift up, you know, actually proactively helping them find good contacts and make good connections as they leave. I mean, these these are things that kind of cost little to no money, really. And I think they can they can ri really expedite that that search, can't they, as well? So that even if you don't buy them time with money, you you actually speed up things for them otherwise. Um and uh, you know, I think I think it's worth just going back to the LinkedIn reference, but but also all of those other things, finding connections for them and and everything else that you might do. Um it's worth bearing in mind that when they leave, they're probably not in the best place, and they aren't necessarily actually going to ask you for those things promptly. And I think that's why it's really important to proactively offer them promptly.

Matt Dale: 30:34

Well, and and on that note too, Charlotte, about you know, they're going through a really rough day and a really you know rough time and they don't know what the future looks like, there's a lot of uncertainty, you know. And as I think of right now with with the the COVID virus, I think we're we're we're we're laying people off into a job market that's that's really uncertain. Um, there's a lot of shock and and like, oh my gosh, this just happened. What does this mean for me? What does this mean for my family? In situations you may have you know spouses or partners that are both getting laid off around this time. And what is what does that look like? So I think your point is really good. People are gonna be in a state of shock when this happens, and that can manifest itself in different ways. But if if if we have the opportunity to connect with them a little later and say, hey, you know, can I get your personal email or would would you be okay if I reach out to you in a week or so? I'd just like to see how you're doing and I'd I want to be here for you and see what I can do. A lot of times, like when we when I think about grief and I think of someone, you know, someone passing away or something like that, it's initially there's this real big outpouring of here's all the stuff, here's all the information, someone's baking food, you know, and people are in their lives, but as as they move past that point, as they move into you know, week two, week three, week four, month two, month three, suddenly there's nobody there and it can feel very alone and and very very hard. And I think as compassionate folks, if if we have the opportunity to leave that door open and check back in in a month, hey, I just was thinking about you. Um, how are things? What's going on? What can I help with? Or instead of asking what can I help with, saying, hey, I wrote this letter reference, or I'd like to post your your resume up on LinkedIn, would that be okay? Because sometimes we're in those situations we can't actually think about what we need. We just so if someone says, Hey, I can do anything, what do you want me to do? That that's different than if they say, Hey, can I write you a letter of reference? And I don't know. I so I I think thinking about it not as this is an event that happened today, but rather this is this is something that's happening to this person for a period of time. How can I help be with them through that um and show that compassion?

Charlotte Ward: 32:25

Yeah, and it's on you can be a really, really useful ongoing help, you know, a month, six months, even a year down the line. You know these people pretty well by and large. Um, you've trod the same patch of carpet with them if you're in an office for six months or a year or five or ten years, whatever it is. And um, you know, you might just be their doorway into an opportunity that they would not have encountered otherwise. And that doorway might not immediately be apparent, but it's always worth proactively pushing out to them.

Kimmie Sesnon: 32:58

And if you're not holistically good at remembering, set yourself a calendar day, you know, a calendar reminder to just check in. Because for me, that definitely helps. Um just falls out my head.

Kaylin Bailey: 33:14

Yep. An additional benefit to this is when people leave and they get laid off, it doesn't mean that everyone stops talking to them. So as you support people that have been laid off in in their next step, your team's gonna hear about that and know that you really care about your team deeply, and it doesn't just end with being laid off or leaving the team. So I think that's a good point as well.

Charlotte Ward: 33:37

Yeah, absolutely. That comes back slightly to this kind of um just not encouraging distance between your team as well and the outgoing folk, doesn't it?

Matt Dale: 33:50

Well, and it's also something too, I think we have in in many cases at least experience with with putting people on performance plans and and and firing them for cause. And so we kind of are in this mindset of, well, this is the end of the relationship, they have burned the bridges, like this is this is destroyed. And so we can very easily get caught up in that normal processes for HR in that situation. And I think this is a very different situation, and so we need to change our mindset and think about it as this is not a severing because they have violated some part of the relationship, but rather this is you know, this isn't something that anybody wanted. How can I then help them through this? Um, and and it's just a different mindset. So I just would encourage people to be open to that and and think about it differently than a typical uh firing someone or or or letting them go for cause.

Charlotte Ward: 34:34

Yeah, this is not personal. Sorry, Jimmy, and sorry, sorry, Kevin. I was just gonna say to that point that actually this isn't uh usually for any cause. I mean, there might be spreadsheets in the back end that you know try and draw judgments around skill levels or tenure or or just cost-benefit of keeping certain people on over others, right? But all of those people that are walking out of the door are gonna feel like it's their fault.

Max Bauer: 35:04

Yeah, it's actually a point that I always have to remember um when this happens that to spell it out, to really tell these people as uh emotionally affected as possible that it's not their fault, it's not based on their performance. And uh I think it's very important for them to hear that uh even multiple times because yeah, otherwise they might not believe it. Being let go is always the feeling of I did something wrong, I wasn't good enough. Why me? Why not the others? And that's a typical instinct and to counteract that as much as we can is is very helpful for them.

Charlotte Ward: 35:40

Yeah, absolutely. Um so let's move on then to keeping it personal. We've talked a little bit about some of the things that we we can do. But I I'd really love to explore some of this some more. How how uh in-depth are you prepared to go when it comes to getting personally involved with with your outgoing uh team members? What what what I mean if there's one thing I'm gonna actually I'm gonna come to you later for like a single piece of advice, but from a really personal level, what do you think you can do for these people that that is entirely outside of the remit of yourself in in the you know, with your your company's logo as a backdrop outside of the remit of your organization? Do you think we can be do you think there is cause to be particularly personal about this? And if so, what can we do for them that that really is not organizational? I'm gonna give this one to Greg first. Go on, Greg.

Greg Skirving: 36:45

Uh yeah, I I uh uh for me personally, like I say, I I uh um uh uh tell people to stay positive, um, help them as much as I can, uh let them know that I've gone through it, and and I and and I can be empathetic and know exactly what you feel. I know exactly what's going on. And the first time it happened to me, um I thought the world was gonna end. Um and uh but you get through it. And um I think I think not backing off uh every little thing people uh uh were gonna do. So for instance, if you were gonna, I know this is a little different situation with the virus and the non-travel, but um in a in a situation when you're laid off, some people will oh geez, I can't take that trip or I can't do that. On the contrary, you should continue as uh as uh as much as uh uh as possible with uh with what you were doing. You still need to live. And uh obviously it's a little challenging with uh with uh uh obviously travel with this right now. But I I I like to uh I like to uh um I like to, sorry, um, you know, provide uh the professional guidance. I I will follow up, uh uh, you know, how are things going? But for me it's about you know um uh moving forward, getting people uh focused on the next chapter in their lives. I know one of the comments is maybe maybe it is time for a change for uh for some folks. And uh uh yeah, just uh that's that's kind of what I keep it to.

Kaylin Bailey: 38:20

I always like to provide them with my personal email or even a phone number on the way out the door to I think it's a good way to really indicate, hey, I care about you as a person outside of the organization. You know, we can talk about whatever career development or help you with your resume, and and they've got contact info for me for longe r than I stay at the organization.

Charlotte Ward: 38:40

Um we keep talking over each other, don't we, Kimmy? Um I think that's that's a really important point, though, that you know, your relationship began in this organization. It doesn't end because one or both of you leaves that organization. So that's really nice that you have a personal contact. LinkedIn quite often provides us with that nowadays, but there's something slightly more personal, even about an email address. LinkedIn, you know you can always get people through LinkedIn and get in touch with people, but but having a personal way to communicate put straight to their inbox is it does send the message that you are willing to stay in touch and that that is a long-term arrangement and a long-term, a long-term kind of uh uh objective really outside of the organization.

Matt Dale: 39:36

I think having a situation too where you can meet them for coffee or or say, Hey, can I can I buy you lunch? You know, and how are things going? And having that personal face-to-face connection if you're geographically nearby, which um doesn't always happen in this modern era, but but if if they're nearby, I think being able to to share a meal or to share a cup of coffee and just how are you doing? I've been thinking a lot about you, you know, and even bringing some of the stuff that we've talked about a letter of reference. Or something to that meeting. I think that can that can mean a lot to have that face-to-face. I also really like what Kaelin was saying about you know making sure that they have your personal phone number and the personal email because sometimes there's a feeling I can't angry at the company, but I'm not angry at at the boss, or I'm you know, we can kind of separate those two those two people. I I know a lot of stuff we've talked about in the first section was like, hey, what can we do as an organization versus what can we do as people? And and I I think there's a lot of overlap, which may be why, you know, looking around this group, it's like, oh, everyone's kind of thinking about it because how is that any different? But but really making that personal connection and and uh outside of the organization, I think, is important.

Charlotte Ward: 40:39

And you um you you said something that made me slightly chuckle internally there, Matt, which is that you know you're angry at the organization, but you're not angry at your boss. That's assuming the boss has handled it well, right?

Matt Dale: 40:52

Yeah, there's a whole chance that they're very angry at you because you handled it like a fool and and it didn't come out well. And and I think that's actually an important point too. Um, as as people, we don't necessarily want to talk to the person that let us go. And so encouraging your your team that's that's still there to to maintain those relationships, maybe a more powerful way of connecting than you know, it's the VP of support, and he was the one that was in that meeting and he read that script that HR made him read, and he he he let me go and wow, I'm angry at that guy. Cool, but but maybe you know, a team leader, a director, or someone else on the team being able to say, hey, you know, have have you have you talked to Joe lately? I haven't I haven't heard from him in a while. Yeah, he's doing okay. You know, give him my regards or whatever it is, just being able to make sure that that person has a support network around them, I think, is really good. And again, that could be you as the boss, and that could be not you, and knowing, knowing the difference is important.

Charlotte Ward: 41:47

And just give him my regards. I mean, that little message, hopefully, that gets back to him if you say it to enough people that you check in with, how's that guy doing now? Um, eventually it does, even if they were nervous about approaching someone as as as grand as the VP of support, that um, you know, that ultimately that they may feel actually, you know what he's not he seems to have asked a few times about me. Maybe I'll drop him an email to let him know personally how I'm doing. And that opens up that communication line.

Matt Dale: 42:17

Interestingly enough, we had a situation where someone left the company. It wasn't a laugh. Um, that person wanted to leave, but um I I did my normal thing, which is hey, let me get a reference letter reference for for LinkedIn. Um, and that person hasn't accepted my LinkedIn request. And I'm like, this is interesting because I can't actually give them a good, like, hey, things went well because we're not connected that way. And so I've had to actually talk to some of the other folks on the team that know that they're friends that said, hey, like, how's so-and-so doing? And and you know, I've got a letter of reference if they're interested, that sort of thing, and hasn't come back yet, but but I I still have that in my in my saved text file that if that person decides at some point they need that, then then I'm ready to go. And I think it's important to realize that we can't always be doing all the things that we want to for someone sometimes. They're just not interested in, and that's okay too. They're processing it their own way.

Charlotte Ward: 43:05

Yeah, absolutely. Oh, and we're talking quite a lot here about longer term, about the the the value of of personal and uh long-term check-ins and opportunities for communication and and you know, uh giving them opportunities via references and networking and everything else. Um but you know, you said there about the VP of support who read the HR script on the day. And you know, these things on the day, they are quite often heavily scripted. There's a lot of say legal safeguarding and other safeguarding that goes on. What do you think we can do on the day personally? And I know this is going to vary a lot by organization because some are more stringent and restrictive in those on those days than others. But I'm kind I'm kind of thinking, even under the most restrictive circumstances, aside from the the conversation where it happens, and we've talked about awkward conversations before, definitely, but what can you do on the day?

Kaylin Bailey: 44:09

I think it's important to show emotion, maybe not to the extreme of crying, but you can read the script in a way that feels like you care, or you can read it like a robot, and the more that they can feel that you care, I think that it goes a long way.

Matt Dale: 44:26

I think trying to think about it from their perspective too, and and being ready for whatever situation comes up. So making sure there's a tissue box on the desk, having a box ready or several boxes ready and available if if they need to clear out their desk. I I always try to think I've seen some people that want to just leave and don't want to talk to anybody. And I've seen scenarios where people want to come and they want to say goodbye and hug people and and go through that whole process. And I want to make sure that I'm honoring them in whatever that is. So if you want to sneak out the back door, you know, I'll I'll actually say that. Hey, you know, you can go talk to people. I've got boxes. If you'd rather, you can sneak out the back door, I'll get your stuff ready and you can pick it up later. Whatever you're most comfortable with, how can I help you through this so that you're not you're not feeling awkward?

Kimmie Sesnon: 45:07

That's gold advice. Definitely.

Charlotte Ward: 45:11

Yeah, absolutely. It's such an individual experience for everyone. Uh, and you know, for us as well. You know, how we deal with that is really quite individual. Um, well let's move on then to my final point, which some people really have trouble with. I always like to leave these panels asking for one piece of advice. Some people think that's licensed to give three pieces of advice. And just to let you know, I'm totally okay with that, but you might steal other people's pieces of advice. So let's see how we go. Um, let's start with VJ. Do you do you think, you know, as we as we come to the end of our time here, that you have something that everybody who's going through this situation really should know well you know, on a on a personal note, this is not about you.

Vijaya Panthagani: 46:15

This is not about performance. Um this is something outside of your control and my control. And we are going to go through it together and I'll make it as comfortable for you as much as I can.

Kimmie Sesnon: 46:36

Okay, yeah, very true, very true. Um okay, uh, Caitlin. Yes.

Kaylin Bailey: 46:45

I would say that in the short term the pain feels really, really bad, but give it time, and most people end up on their feet, and especially if you've got a community of people around you that are supporting you and helping you get to the next step that with time it will get better, and try to remember that in the short term when it feels really yucky.

Charlotte Ward: 47:08

Yeah, yeah. Um, and it's difficult to make people feel that without resorting to cliches. How do you how do you help people understand that?

Kaylin Bailey: 47:23

I think the first step is what we talked about earlier, is making sure they know that you care personally, and then if they feel safe, having conversations, right? Where you help support them in the short term and really you're the shoulder gonna go, oh hey, I've been through this and I've seen people go through this, and here's where you know 10 examples ended up, and and we're gonna help get you there too. So doing it with with care, not like a robot, like, oh, give it time. We don't, you know, we're not gonna worry about it because you're gonna be okay, just really caring and and helping them get there with examples and and being the personal touch.

Kimmie Sesnon: 47:59

Yeah, absolutely. Max, do you have a piece of advice?

Max Bauer: 48:05

I do, and it's pretty much exactly the same as VJ said. So I'm gonna do another one. I would like to give a piece of advice to uh any leader who has to manage through that. Um, and that is uh watch yourself, um, watch your mental health. It's more straining than you might think if you have not done it before. And uh most people neglect them because we do care. I don't know any leader who doesn't care about their people, even if they behave robotic. Um, and they need to watch themselves. Um, so yeah, get people to help you, get another, get another manager to listen to you ramble on or a family member, but definitely watch out for yourself or you'll or you'll burn out more quickly than you think.

Charlotte Ward: 48:48

I think that's really, really important. Yeah, we we spend a lot of time thinking about how difficult it is for the people who are going and the people who are left behind, but we never count ourselves as as part of the people who are left behind. And um, I think that's really really, really important advice. Um it's as we've said on this call, it your day is never going to be as bad as the day of the people who you are letting go. But that bit of self-care is really important, and you are part of that team, so you should give yourself the same graces really that you would give. We would we would hope that you would give the rest of your team.

Kimmie Sesnon: 49:25

Absolutely. Greg. Yeah, just stay positive.

Charlotte Ward: 49:33

Short and sweet. How do you do it? How do you stay positive?

Greg Skirving: 49:38

Uh focus on uh focus on what's gonna happen, focus on um, you know, making making the right decisions, not dwelling on the past, move forward. Um, and uh and you you you just reassuring that uh the person that they they they will end on their feet, they they will get another job. Uh it might even be uh a better situation for them. Um, but uh stay positive and focus focus on the futu re.

Kimmie Sesnon: 50:06

Awesome. Yeah. Kimmy, I know that everyone else is gonna hit the ones that I was gonna do. So mine is read the four agreements. Um, four agreements are be impeccable with your word, don't take anything personally, don't make assumptions, and always do your best. And I have found that in times when I am struggling um in all areas, I go back to this, it makes me feel good. And anything when you can be kind to yourself in times like this is the best.

Charlotte Ward: 50:48

I have never I have not come across the four agreements before. Can you give me those again? Yes. Oh my gosh, holding Greg's holding it up. Greg is holding it up as we speak.

Kimmie Sesnon: 50:59

It's by Don Miguel Ruiz, and it is um they're listed in the book, but it's be impeccable with your word, don't take anything personally, don't make assumptions, and always do your best.

Charlotte Ward: 51:16

That's amazing. Thank you so much. And who knew that it was there on someone's desk on this call?

Greg Skirving: 51:22

It's a quick read. It is a quick read, and it's a very good one.

Charlotte Ward: 51:27

Cool. I mean, I kind of want to ask, do I need to read it now? Kimmy's told me them twice, but but if it's a very good one, I'll seek it out. Thank you both. Matt.

Matt Dale: 51:38

Yeah, so I'm I'm a big fan of what Max has said, you know, taking care of yourself. Um I think scheduling your time such that you can talk to the people that need to be to be laid off, talk to your team and take care of them, and then make sure you have some space to breathe and and go on a walk around the building, do whatever you need to do to kind of get re-centered because it's going to be in a very emotional process. Um, since I get Nike already kind of took mine and I'm I'm just agreeing with him, I'd also say that as you prepare for this, it's really helpful for um for you to think about things and do some role-playing. This is something that Caitlin and I have done in a couple situations that we've we were we worked together in a couple situations where we've dealt with layoffs, going through and going, hey, what's what's the worst scenario? How can I imagine this going really badly? What would that be like? Okay, well, what would this be like? And kind of talking through it. If the first time that you're you're going through this HR script or the first time that you're doing this is is right with that person live, you're not going to be able to do it in a way that if you've practiced a few times and kind of gone through it, um, you're not gonna be comfortable like you need to be, and you're not gonna be present like you need to be for that person. Um so so practicing um with someone safe that's already in the know, um, or someone that may even be in the room with you can be really helpful. And then and then kind of thinking about it afterwards, what went well, what could we do better next time? Um Lord willing there won't be a next time, but I mean, let's face it, we're in we're in business and this happens. So how can I get better at doing this really hard thing that I don't get a lot of practice for?

Kimmie Sesnon: 53:00

Yeah, yeah, that's really true.

Charlotte Ward: 53:02

Um and I think we shouldn't underestimate the value of bringing our own experiences to uh to this as people who have been in you know, either laid off before or it's certainly seen teammates laid off before, before we became leaders. I mean, I've been laid off three times, and you know, the first time was horrific, and uh it was horrific because of the way it was handled by leadership then. Um second time was pretty good, third time less great again. And I think you know, on each occasion, whether it was handled well or not, we all we all know what parts of that made us uncomfortable, what parts of that were difficult. And it's really just trying to figure out what you can extract from your own experiences and do and replicating those. I mean, so much of leadership is like that anyway, but this is such a rare thing we do that we have to kind of look around us and see how other people are handling it well. That's it for today. Go to customersupportleaders.com forward slash fifty three for the show notes, and I'll see you next time.